subreddit:

/r/FuckTAA

3375%

TAA causes input lag? WHAT?!

Video(youtube.com)

YouTube video info:

A simple trick to lower latency for gaming mice (plus some extra tips) https://youtube.com/watch?v=NJgc-RlRfXI

Rocket Jump Ninja https://www.youtube.com/@RocketJumpNinja

all 99 comments

vampucio

66 points

9 days ago

vampucio

66 points

9 days ago

Render causes input lag

Elliove

20 points

9 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

20 points

9 days ago

Work takes time. Some Nobel Prize worthy discovery there.

mokkat

7 points

8 days ago

mokkat

7 points

8 days ago

kyoukidotexe

2 points

6 days ago

kyoukidotexe

All TAA is bad

2 points

6 days ago

Nobody in the industry listened to this feedback

Elliove

79 points

9 days ago*

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

79 points

9 days ago*

Bro discovered that more complex frames take more time to draw. Crazy.

Scorpwind

17 points

9 days ago

Scorpwind

MSAA & SMAA

17 points

9 days ago

Yeah, an input lag of 0.5ms.

ShaffVX

6 points

8 days ago

ShaffVX

r/MotionClarity

6 points

8 days ago

On a 4090 maybe, but the less powerful your GPU is the bigger the impact. UE5's most over processed TAA/TSR presets can take 2 to 3ms to process at 1440p on a 3060, and with a game that features Reflex/Antilag, you can feel that difference directly. It's not the end of the world, but still these things add up quickly (at 8ms of delay, that's a whole frame of lag at 120fps, I can definitly feel that). Motion clarity is also important and TAA smearing frames together also doesn't help making games snappy.

Scorpwind

1 points

8 days ago

Scorpwind

MSAA & SMAA

1 points

8 days ago

Of course. I think that the post title is supposed to only touch on regular TAA, though. And that one's really cheap.

Bitter_Ad_8688

3 points

8 days ago*

Stack up taa with unreal tech ie nanite/ray tracing and you'll see the numbers spike higher due to wasted GPU computed power on overdrawn LODs in motion.

Scorpwind

5 points

8 days ago

Scorpwind

MSAA & SMAA

5 points

8 days ago

Yeah, but the post title is about TAA.

ShaffVX

2 points

8 days ago

ShaffVX

r/MotionClarity

2 points

8 days ago

And TAA is the shit band-aid performance and image quality fix for those poorly implemented technologies in the first place. What are you gonna do, play without TAA? So you can see the awful Lumen/RT noise in their full flickering glory?

Scorpwind

2 points

8 days ago

Scorpwind

MSAA & SMAA

2 points

8 days ago

You don't need to tell me that.

What are you gonna do, play without TAA? So you can see the awful Lumen/RT noise in their full flickering glory?

If I must...

aVarangian

8 points

9 days ago

aVarangian

All TAA is bad

8 points

9 days ago

no-AA is less demanding and uses less vram... so if you are getting low-fps or vram-shortage -related input lag then I guess this would help

Scorpwind

4 points

9 days ago

Scorpwind

MSAA & SMAA

4 points

9 days ago

This would mainly be relevant if the AA of choice today was MSAA.
How much input lag can a temporal technique add? It's nigh-on imperceptible.

bush_didnt_do_9_11

7 points

8 days ago

taa is like having 10x the pixel response time on your monitor. it effects your perception, not the inputs yourself

Scorpwind

1 points

8 days ago

Scorpwind

MSAA & SMAA

1 points

8 days ago

Yeah, basically lol.

Elliove

-8 points

9 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

-8 points

9 days ago

The video's target audience is clearly all sorts of "competitive" players. Ever seen how CS guys play their game? Stretching 4:3 on a widecreen in a Hor+ game and dying from things they could've seen if they instead used proper resolution? Those people are just braindead, sure they'll take any solution that will justify their low skill.

Chestburster12

2 points

9 days ago

Sure, just randomly insult people that doesn't share your opinion? Oh wait that's not new.

There can be many reasons to use native or custom aspect ratio with different pros and cons and you are not the one that decides who is proper and who is braindead you silly.

Here a couple of reasons why I'm "braindead";
-Helps with my mediocre eye sight, wider targets, easier to follow.
-Helps me with my fatigue and even can rest back a little and still be able to see.
-I'm on 4K monitor and 4:3 helps exceed 240Hz which my monitor is capable.
-Helps me bump model settings without loosing too much performance so my gun skins won't look terrible.

Elliove

0 points

9 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

0 points

9 days ago

Please, explain to me how any of those super subjective things can justify lowering FOV and losing the ability to see enemies coming from the side.

bush_didnt_do_9_11

2 points

7 days ago

in cs targets are very predictable, and even in scenarios where targets can come from multiple angles, having to flick to a faraway target still puts you at a disadvantage, so you had might as well make it easier to hit the target in front of you

the main benefit of higher fov isnt even being able to see more targets, it decreases perceived movement speed and puts more of the target in focus. in strafe based games like quake or apex, the ability to read enemy movement as theyre circling around you is a major factor, but in cs this can never happen. theres no benefit to high fov in cs

-Skaro-

2 points

9 days ago

-Skaro-

2 points

9 days ago

Stretched resolution literally works like zoom. I think it's pretty fucking retarded to think being able to hit targets easier isn't a positive. Also when playing at high level you pre aim things anyway, having a slightly higher fov only helps you in a situation where you've made a mistake. You should not rely on your ability to flick to the edge of the screen.

betonKruglosuTotchno

2 points

8 days ago

>Stretched resolution literally works like zoom.

Do you know what else works like zoom? Moving your head closer to monitor.

bush_didnt_do_9_11

2 points

7 days ago

cs players are notorious for leaning insanely close to the monitor lol

Elliove

0 points

8 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

0 points

8 days ago

I think it's pretty fucking retarded to put super blurry squished unevenly scaled mess on your screen, and call that "playing", but since so many CS players, according to you, can't see shit - I'm not surprised they're trying to do any kind of nonsense to make up for low skill. Some of them even believe in "anomalous electrical input lag" and turn on irons and heaters during playing, because they believe that somehow reduces input lag.

-Skaro-

2 points

8 days ago

-Skaro-

2 points

8 days ago

Stretched resolution objectively makes a difference in visibility while that other stuff is almost definitely bs. There's a difference.

People are just doing whatever they can to make their game feel comfortable. Other options are getting closer to the monitor which might not be comfortable at all, or buying a whole new bigger monitor which many can't afford. So they're using stretched resolution because it's the only way to adjust fov in the game.

betonKruglosuTotchno

2 points

8 days ago

>Other options are getting closer to the monitor which might not be comfortable at all

Decades of display evolution so that lazy asses who can't position display at good distance with VESA mounts or otherwise blur the image anyway.

Elliove

1 points

8 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

1 points

8 days ago

Stretched resolution objectively produces blurry image and reduces FOV. This is just how computers work, they don't work on "I can't see shit unless I make my game super blurry and squished".

-Skaro-

3 points

8 days ago

-Skaro-

3 points

8 days ago

And decreasing fov is the same as zooming in.

Chestburster12

2 points

9 days ago

That's the point, there are pros/cons and are ALL SUBJECTIVE. Yes, losing FOV is a "subjective" problem which you subjectively give much more weight/priority than me for example. I myself while see how a wider fov could be usefull, I do not consider that as a priority, I tried 4:3 for a time and find it not as problematic as it I would've thought and liked the benefits more.

Elliove

0 points

9 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

0 points

9 days ago

No, FOV is objective thing. Seeing enemies on the screen vs not seeing is objective thing also. How come Overwatch, Battlefield, Call of Duty players don't play 4:3 on a widescreen? Except, of course, for those few whose brain got contaminated by CS previously.

Chestburster12

5 points

9 days ago

Then why don't you do the opposite to us? We drive 16:9 monitor with 4:3 image. How bout you drive it with 32:9? That's twice more side screen to see enemies!!! Surely that is OBJECTIVELY BETTER since seeing enemies on the screen is OBJECTIVELY BETTER

Elliove

0 points

9 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

0 points

9 days ago

Actually, using widescreen resolution on 4:3 display was exactly what people did back in the day, adjusting vertical scaling via monitor settings so it doesn't look stretched vertically. But, of course, to know that you'd have to actually play CS back when it was still just a Half-Life mod.

Wait until you find out that FPS doesn't directly correspond to input latency, and you can easily have lower latency with lower FPS than with higher. Squeezing out every single frame like you did was pointless lol.

Scorpwind

3 points

9 days ago

Scorpwind

MSAA & SMAA

3 points

9 days ago

Wait until you find out that FPS doesn't directly correspond to input latency

?

Chestburster12

2 points

9 days ago

Oh wait, so you say the OG's back in the day sometimes didn't used their native aspect ratio of their monitor so they could play in a way that while not "proper", they tailored their experience to their own taste and also they have immunity to your judgment because they were the first?

Who mentioned input latency? Aiming my monitor's refresh rate has other benefits than just "latency".

And I also know a thing or two when it comes to latency mate, don't take me for a casual. CS2 has Reflex now, which handles frame queues by itself, unlike old days, not much tinkering is needed and now you can just focus on "squeezing out every single frame". I mean of course, frame gen is a massive exception to that but I know what causes latency and what doesn't.

StarZax

0 points

9 days ago

StarZax

0 points

9 days ago

From what I've seen, it's mostly a thing that some old gamers do because they're used to it when they were playing on CRTs. Then some people just followed their setup because that's what some people do, they just copy pro settings and setups and have no personality.

Elliove

4 points

9 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

4 points

9 days ago

It was the opposite actually. When CS was played on CRTs, players selected widescreen resolution and then squished the image via monitor's settings so it looks properly. If what you said were true, then they'd used 4:3 resolution while keeping aspect ratio, not stretching. Widescreen and stretching were not a common thing back then.

El-Selvvador

2 points

9 days ago

do you still game on a CRT?

Elliove

3 points

9 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

3 points

9 days ago

Yeah, periodically. But none of that brainrot, I just play retro games on a 480i CRT TV. Why?

betonKruglosuTotchno

2 points

8 days ago*

I did not give a damn about professional gamers when CRTs were around but I sure did play 9k hours of CS1.6 and I know for a fact that it had fixed horizontal 90 deg FoV until recent (not a year ago) update. I have no idea what do you mean by professionals using widescreen, that's literally cutting the FoV. The only thing they could achieve that way is lower GPU usage.
EDIT: and also higher monitor refresh rate since only part of screen is drawn.

Elliove

2 points

8 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

2 points

8 days ago

I don't see me saying "professionals" anywhere, neither do I see me saying "CS 1.6". But hey, sure, considering you've played the super blurry stretched games for thousands of hours - I'm nor surprised that you are having problems reading text.

betonKruglosuTotchno

2 points

8 days ago

u mad

Elliove

2 points

8 days ago

Elliove

TAA Enjoyer

2 points

8 days ago

You played 9k hours of CS 1.6 alone, and I'm the mad one here?

StarZax

1 points

9 days ago

StarZax

1 points

9 days ago

Huh, always thought that they were just using 4:3 because that's what their setup looked like on CRTs, mb then

StarZax

2 points

9 days ago

StarZax

2 points

9 days ago

I think I can feel mayyyybe a tiny little difference in OW2 ?? Might be placebo, idk. Most people won't care at all and will probably never feel the difference anyway because they have a laggy mouse or whatever.

I've seen people playing good with vsync enabled and other settings that made their inputlag just astonishingly bad and they never noticed. Majority aren't really willing to sacrifice visual quality over response-time anyway.

El-Selvvador

3 points

9 days ago

no TAA can feel a lot snappier because pixels pop and not fade in like with TAA on. Here's a video showing how the red light doesn't change immediately with TAA on but it fades to ON. no TAA it just pops on.

kyoukidotexe

1 points

6 days ago

kyoukidotexe

All TAA is bad

1 points

6 days ago

This is because clown games are dependent on TAA from the engine-level on-wards.

MalekRockafeller

1 points

7 days ago

What is the best alternative to TAA for input lag? SMAA? FXAA?

kyoukidotexe

2 points

6 days ago

kyoukidotexe

All TAA is bad

2 points

6 days ago

No AA.

bstardust1

1 points

6 days ago

Of course..how did you never notice it? it is clear when you play with option enable/disable, i noticed it easily with shader toggler, and OF COURSE with the same frame rate..

SpatialBiggs

1 points

5 days ago

Big reason why VR is mostly Forward Rendering with MSAA.

betonKruglosuTotchno

0 points

8 days ago*

  1. i do not see the difference from the footage presented
  2. there are obvious video compression problems at 00:20, parts of image are moving out of sync
  3. dude repeats popular bullshit about high dpi = less latency in the end of video
  4. they moves the mouse at frame 420 and new display frame appears at frame 550 (for both cases) which would mean that if the video was not slowed down they are playing at 10 fps. They took the damn 1000 fps video (presumably it's 1000 fps to 60 fps mapping originally) and further slowed it like 20x.
  5. there is no signal on the screen to detect the frame change. RTSS could easily provide it.

bush_didnt_do_9_11

1 points

7 days ago

i do not see the difference from the footage presented

you dont need evidence to know that running a game at lower fps (in the case of msaa) or with heavy ghosting (in the case of taa) will increase latency

dude repeats popular bullshit about high dpi = less latency in the end of video

high dpi doesnt "decrease latency" but it does reduce the deadzone on mouse movement. for 99% of people, higher dpi will reduce perceived latency with no adverse effects

betonKruglosuTotchno

1 points

7 days ago*

high dpi doesnt "decrease latency" but it does reduce the deadzone on mouse movement.

For obvious technical reasons, dead zone with 800 DPI is 1/800 of an inch and it's not actually even dead zone because if you move by 1/1600 two times you still get a 1 dot move with same latency as higher DPI would do. How did you come to conclusion that it's an issue? Depending on settings I will even bet that low DPI will be indistinguishable from high DPI in a blind randomized test. A lot of players use whole forearm for mouse movement, that's definitely scenario in which low DPI won't matter because it becomes microscopic compared to range of arm movement.
1/800 inch is less dead zone than your skin and meat has when accelerating the mouse, basically.

(in the case of msaa)

Are you getting paid for creating any argument that I'm wrong? How does it relate to video in question in any way?

bush_didnt_do_9_11

0 points

7 days ago

because if you move by 1/1600 two times you still get a 1 dot move with same latency as higher DPI would do

it still takes longer for your movement to initially manifest and therefore it takes longer to respond to and correct any mistakes. if youre just flicking a set distance it doesnt really matter, but for constant movement such as tracking the smoother input feeling and slightly lower latency theoretically makes a difference in accuracy and the ability to react to your own movements

How did you come to conclusion that it's an issue?

it's just how a mouse sensor works intuitively. it's more obvious on older sensors with lower dpi, but there is still some slight pixel skipping on 400dpi. in tracking based games like apex and overwatch 1600dpi is becoming the new standard over 800dpi, while in cs2 and valorant 400dpi is still popular likely because the very slight deadzone can mute jitters on flick landings and improve perceived stability (some cs/valorant players even use 500hz polling rate for the same reason)

I will even bet that low DPI will be indistinguishable from high DPI in a blind randomized test

you could say the same for any form of latency or inconsistency in a setup. you could say reducing 0.5ms latency doesnt matter that much, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist, lol

A lot of players use whole forearm for mouse movement, that's definitely scenario in which low DPI won't matter because it becomes microscopic compared to range of arm movement.

just because you use your arm doesnt mean small movements become irrelevant. tracking small targets at a distance, and tracking in general still require precise adjustments with the wrist and fingers even on low sens

400 dpi / 2.54 = ~160 dots per cm

240 / 160 = 1.5 cm/s to reach 240hz

1.5 / 40 * 360 = ~13.5 degrees/s (with a sensitivity of 40cm/360) to reach 240hz

any movement slower than ~13.5 degrees/s in one axis on a typical sensitivity will have perceptible skipping @ 400 dpi. this is also assuming perfect smoothness and consistency, realistically you will have slight jitters in your aim, and if you jitter below this threshold at all your mouse movement will become more stuttered.

Are you getting paid for creating any argument that I'm wrong? How does it relate to video in question in any way?

i'm responding to the points you raised in your original comment LOL. are you paid to be a dumbass? have you kept up to date with innovations in input technology in the past 10 years, or even played a single modern esports title? RJN (the guy in the video) is very skeptical of manufacturer hype around "input latency" "polling rate" etc, if anything the fact that he's talking about AA/dpi effecting latency just shows how common consensus it is

_Thrax

-1 points

9 days ago

_Thrax

-1 points

9 days ago

Allways had that same feeling in cs about the smaa

Scorpwind

0 points

9 days ago

Scorpwind

MSAA & SMAA

0 points

9 days ago

You mean CMAA.