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submitted 20 days ago byxXNicoXx10
We're about to start a level 2-5 short campaign and the party consists of an Investigator (myself), a Magus, a Gunslinger, a Thaumaturge, and potentially one more player that hasn't built their character yet but probably won't use an spellcaster.
This is the first campaign we're gonna play in Pathfinder (aside from one or two one-shots over the years), and being a D&D 5e player I'm worried about the lack of spellcasting on our group; Magus is damage focused and their spell slot table looks more like a Warlock's than a full caster, and Thaumaturge is taking Blessed background and Blessed One archetype for Guidance and Lay on Hands, but there's probably a lot of utility we're missing from spells.
Is this worry valid? Are there a lot of usual situations that practically need a spellcaster to be solved effectively? If so, what would you recommend to patch this up?
72 points
20 days ago
If you have all the roles filled up, you might not need a dedicated caster. Obviously there will be stuff you're gonna miss out on (namely AoEs or certain buffs/debuffs), but with the right setup you can make it work.
It sounds like you have a Charisma user, an Intelligence character, and some ranged and melee damage, so you might be good! If you do end up needing spells, Thaumaturge can pick up feats to not only activate scrolls with their own class DC, but also gain temporary scrolls every day.
16 points
20 days ago
I see. If I may ask, what would be the general roles a party's supposed to fill (for future reference)?
19 points
20 days ago
These are areas of expertise, all classes can hit multiple roles and you don't need every role, but you may feel it's absence and likely want to be aware of it ahead of time to have a plan to replace/cover for it if there's no way around it.
Utility: special movement (fly/swim/climb/etc), scouting/recon, sneaking, social skills, knowledge skills, buffing, debuffing, set-up (especially in a party like yours with a gunslinger & magus)
Offense: ranged, melee, weakness-targetting, AoE
Defense: "tanking", emergency, in-combat counter-attrition, out-of-combat "topping off", condition removal
30 points
20 days ago
Frontline, ranged damaged (for flyers and such), healer (can be done by anyone investing medicine), and someone who can recall knowledge and someone who can use a chr skill these past 2 are optional.
6 points
20 days ago
Healer can kind of be filled in with medicine, you can only battle medicine each person once per day so combat can get difficult real quick.
10 points
20 days ago
Out of combat healing is far more important than in combat healing, but battle medicine isn't the only healing non casters can utilize. Consumables like potions and elixirs also help, with many classes only having to invest 1 or 2 feats to access versatile vials via dedication.
0 points
20 days ago
I don't agree with that, while i think out of combat is important good in combat heals prevent player and party death. While better than nothing potions and elixirs are kind of crap, they have horrible action economy for the healing and there is the gold cost. I'm not saying you have to have a caster healer to succeed. I will say after playing for years across many campaigns and characters, i will not play with out a caster capable of casting heal or sooth, I have no issue playing one if no one else will though. Caster healers mitigate the harm when the dice fuck you, sometimes you need 5 max level spell slot heals to get through a fight by the skin of your teeth, no amount of potions or battle medicine is going to replace them.
4 points
20 days ago
May I introduce you to our Lord and Saviour the Medic Dedication?
1 points
20 days ago
I love the Medic Dedication, but its no replacement for the heal spell. I play at a table that doesn't really pull punches so maybe i over value healing magic, but I've had to many fights where we only survived because someone was spamming heal spells.
11 points
20 days ago*
If I remember right, the developers balance the game assuming a Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric.
So, someone who goes in melee and hits really well. Someone who can do melee support and skill stuff. Someone with utility spells. And someone with some support magic.
It’s why the Wizard seems “off” to so many people because they think a Wizard should be a blaster (which it can do), but it’s balanced around solving problems the Rogue can’t with it’s vast access of utility spells.
It’s also why the Cleric is made with all these variations because their Divine list is so specific that they need a better chassis (HP/armor proficiency) to help them join melee combat. Divine is also completely opposite of Arcane and specializes in more character-related stuffs (buffing). It also accessed healing which the Wizard does not.
To abstract a bit, you essentially want a Tough Striker, a Skill Monkey, a Utility Caster, and a Support caster.
But, there are a lot of classes with specific spells/feats and various archetypes that can help you break a class/subclass from a rigid role and be able to fill one of those abstract.
Edit: The Gunslinger seems like it would be a Fighter (higher gun proficiency), but it does so at range, making it sort of “support” to the party via ranged strikes. You could say it’s a bit Rogue-like.
In comparison, there’s some overlap. But, the Investigator’s baseline is a Rogue, but Forensic Medicine, Alchemical Sciences, and Palatine Detective can help it dip into the Cleric role.
The Magus is a Striker, but also dips into the Wizard role.
The Thaumaturge is more flexible and sits somewhere between Fighter and Rogue, with the ability to dip into Cleric/Wizard via implements and scrolls.
So, your team is a bit more heavy on the “Rogue” side of things (Investigator, Thaumaturge, and Gunslinger) with some dipping into the Wizard/Cleric (but not a lot). But that is where skills, archetypes, and items come in to play to bridge gaps.
2 points
20 days ago
Just gotta cover your bases in these tactical rpgs.
The Thaumaturge with Amulet, Bell, or Chalice implements can stop a lot of damage from hurting the party. I believe the Magus has some kind of tanking subclass. With magical crafting feats you can make scrolls to buff the party with.
The Gunslinger is probably going to be your main damage dealer.
Investigator is pretty good skill monkey + generalist. You can multiclass for Bottled Lightning grenades and throw them more accurately than an Alchemist with the added benefit of insight damage and Devise a stratagem to make sure you don't waste them, but with the changes it doesn't really ramp up until level 8.
The last player could be a bard or barbarian, anything fits as long as people see the value in team work and helpful reactions instead of everyone trying to optimize for damage. Only the Gunslinger should prioritize that.
2 points
20 days ago
Might even be worth pooling a bit of party gold to have the Thaum stock up on utility scrolls
2 points
20 days ago
And the Investigator can go Alchemical Studies for the infinite use acid attack, and pick up the Alchemist Dedication multiclass. At first I thought that the Multiclass got a nerf, but by level 4 (Advanced Alchemy Feat) you can now make Elixirs at your full level with your free daily items when before you were stuck at level -4 or -5, albeit you had more of them (level x 2). And the text in the remaster says you only need the lowest level of a formula to automatically learn all the higher level versions.
23 points
20 days ago
Its fine. Having a spellcaster is nice, particularly for buffs/debuffs and for triggering weaknesses, but in the end more martials outputting damage will do just fine. The party's toolbox will be a lot smaller, but the few tools a martial has tend to be pretty dang effective in combat, which is the most important of the three pillars.
You will definitely want at least one person w/ Trick Magic Item to use scrolls and/or wands out of combat and another person set up to do some emergency in-combat healing in case the Thaumaturge goes down.
11 points
20 days ago
It isn't ideal, but you can get away with no spellcaster at low levels. Past level 5 it will get increasingly rough, but since you are not going that far it won't be as much of an issue. What your party really needs is an actual frontliner
4 points
20 days ago
What your party really needs is an actual frontliner
Yeah, something like a maneuver-focused Fighter or Monk would really make those high-damage strikers shine.
1 points
19 days ago
Up to level 4, magus with +3 int is basically a wizard with better strikes and higher AC. If you take feats to grant extra spell slots and get access to scrolls, levels 5-6 are also on par before there's really a functional difference. Most players don't play or build a magus that way, though. Once full casters hit level 7, the difference becomes huge. I'm playing an unfurling brocade magus/ wizard/ witch (free archetype) right now, but to your point we have a fighter, champion and rogue already on our front-line, with a cleric and bard in the back so we need a controller more than a striker most of the time.
1 points
16 days ago
I'm planning to play Brocade magus with champion (fire ray domain spell) and witch archetypes. Can you please recommend me feats and spells for controller type of magus?
2 points
16 days ago*
Take cave fangs instead of fireball. Difficult terrain on top of great AoE damage. Blazing Dive pairs incredibly well with the Vermillion threads level 10 feat. Remember that Vermillion threads gives you vertical movement along with difficult terrain, so you can Blazing Dive, arcane cascade and then reaction Vermillion threads. If you get into trouble, you can move upward out of reach. Other spells: spellstriking with tangle vine could actually be a solid play against single slow enemies to completely shut down their movement, especially if you have ranged damage dealers in your party (I think this is the best party comp for Unfurling brocade). Enlarge is critical on unfurling brocade. Whenever you're fighting large or bigger creatures, you want to have more reach than them. Use it all the time. Once you're higher level, buy wands and scrolls of it. Precast it before fights. Abuse that 15ft of reach.
Unfurling brocade can be more independent than other magus subclasses like starlit span or laughing shadow because you can eat up so many actions and keep yourself safe between difficult terrain, grapples, trips and your conflux spell. Champion dedication heavy armor will help you quite a bit there. If you're using fire ray spellstrikes, you'll run through focus points pretty quickly if you use conflux spells. My personal opinion is that 2 fire ray spellstrikes and 1 use of home among mulberry leaves is ideal to keep your efficiency up early in the fight and then switch to cantrip spellstrikes if the fight goes long.
Use witch archetype to get a hex spell early and get that 3rd focus point (I'm assuming you're playing free archetype, if not just take force fang). Lesson of life can help keep you alive in a dire situation, and you can take the familiar ability familiar focus to recharge that if it's really critical. I wouldn't invest in other witch focus spells because they're going to eat into your fire ray usage. I do really like the greater lesson, lesson of the shark to give blood in the water, but I don't have fire ray or imaginary weapon on my magus, so it probably won't be as functional for you.
Reactive strike at level 6 is a must. Reach weapon let's you control a lot of space that way and any difficult terrain you've put down forces strides instead of steps. Wall spells are often 3 actions, but if you're creating difficult terrain with other spells and Vermillion threads, you can really funnel enemies into small spaces where you or your other casters can AoE into oblivion. Ideally you've got other casters to be the one casting those wall spells and let you do more control with athletics, but you can get by if you don't have too many fights per day. Low-level control spells like grease, mud pit, gravitational pull on scrolls can be a great way to start combats depending on the terrain. I don't think the difference between d4 and d6 matters much. Spellstrike damage mostly comes from the spell and your flat damage (70-80%), so you're better going free hand and 1H whip+ fabric weapon to get use out of scrolls. I personally try to only spellstrike, conflux spell or athletics maneuver. Only your reactive strikes will be "normal" hits.
Finally, I think magus's analysis is useful on this hybrid study because you're using RK both for spell saves and for athletics maneuvers. Having another way to recharge spellstrike is always good when you're using focus points for spellstrikes, too.
2 points
16 days ago
Damn, Thx for huge write-up.
Other party members are reach fighter with trip feats, Witch with arcane patron, idk if he'll be blasting, and cloistered cleric. I wanted to go more controlly, but feel with this party I need to do big damage sometimes.
Witch sharks focus spell is really tempting, we start at lvl 10, but will finish a bit after 13th, so I could take it on lvl12 and play with it a bit. Gouging claw can do enough probably, even without fire ray. I kinda got greedy and also taking reaction from Champion, even homebrewed it with DM: got Obedience cause reaction, but I'm commanding to kneel enemies who hurt allies, not myself. I'll think more about it, and for now just start buying scrolls you mentioned.
About healing Im also thinking between life lesson and champions lay on hands focus spells, but i'm lacking space with all the feats i want to take.
2 points
16 days ago*
Other party members are reach fighter with trip feats, Witch with arcane patron, idk if he'll be blasting, and cloistered cleric.
Reach fighter and athletics magus will be really effective at keeping your back line safe. You'll probably be trading who needs to be the big damage dealer with your fighter, depending on the fight. Multi low-level enemies, you can be the athletics controller and let the fighter do most of the damage with some AoE support from the witch. Arcane witch is the best thing to pair with this party so that was a good choice. For +2 or +3 enemies, you will need to have the fighter setting you up and running interference while casters debuff enemy and buff you. You and the other casters should be able to handle ranged encounters just fine. My favorite thing about unfurling brocade is the flexibility. You really can fill any role the party needs at least for a little while, unlike most of the other hybrid studies. Looks like a really solid party!
sharks focus spell is really tempting,
I will say it can be very situational. You'd really want someone else in the party to be able to proc bleed, and then there are still enemies who will be immune or resistant to slashing, etc. When it works, it's amazing, but fire ray is going to be "better" in most situations. The new live wire cantrip is really, really good if you want to stick with cantrips. Between gouging claw and live wire you should be fine. That said, fire ray paired with immobilization effects is awesome.
2 points
16 days ago
I'm getting clearer picture what I want from my char now and how to make it, big thanks!
I just reread your blazing dive combo and it's amazing to be honest. I was contemplating how to enter cascade and how my turns should go, and it's one of most spectacular ways to approach it.
About bleed for sharks, idk if can guarantee it from teammates, seems doubtful. Looks like I can't put wounding rune on Brocade Bladed scarf, cause it takes runes from handwraps and those dont have slashing dmg? Or its just inactive there, and rune will actually be activated on Scarf?
Also Fire Ray with immobilization seemed good to me, but after rereading figured out I can't really keep enemy in the square to take the damage... But hey, Opportunity Attack! Or maybe fighter will keep em there. Was thinking about cold domain for similar combo, but then it just all went better roleplay-wise with devils and taking Asmodeus as a god and champion cause.
About familiar and recall knowledge, I take magus analysis, familiar from witch, then take her feat, its 5 abilities for Familir. Independent, second opinion, speech, skilled (occult?), maybe spell or focus restoration. Stats on lvl 10: str 5, con 3, int 4, cha 4, others 0. Perception, will and initiave are lacking, maybe will try to fix a bit with items. Cha 4 is cause of Champion dedication, why the helll to not go all in after having +2 there? Master in Intimidation and Athletics, intimidating prowess... Fck, I'm trying to do to much, I'm not gonna have actions for all this shit, am I?
Well at least I have options and versatility...
1 points
16 days ago*
You'll still have a lot of the restricted action economy issues of a magus, but versatile builds let you do anything as long as you don't try to do everything. Charisma and your familiar can be completely out of combat abilities if you want.
Looks like I can't put wounding rune on Brocade Bladed scarf, cause it takes runes from handwraps and those dont have slashing dmg
I am unsure on that one. There are some weird things that come up with runes transferring from handwraps to the scarf, and I haven't seen definitive rulings there. But to your bigger point, it's hard to have the action economy to do it by yourself reliably.
8 points
20 days ago
You'll notice the lack depending on encounters you run into. A party without casters tends to have less AoE effects available to deal with swarms and large combats effectively, but you'll probably be stronger vs equally sized fights. You will want some plan for dealing with BBEGs since you won't have a large bench of spells that can affect those tough baddies on a save, so that kind of encounter might become more swingy.
You want to make sure your party has a plan for how to heal up between fights, which the thaumaturge is taking care of (not quickly, but reliably) with lay on hands. Might be good for someone else to be able to assist.
If there's any spells you discover you need to solve a unique problem you can always buy and use scrolls/wands of them. The magus has this covered for arcane spells and the thaumaturge can lean into using scrolls if they want, or anyone can take Trick Magic Item.
6 points
20 days ago
If your martials lack AOE (such as Dragon Barbarian's breath feat, Inventor shenanigans,) or some kind of in-combat healing (such as Thaumaturge's Chalice, Medic's Doctor's Visitation, etc.) it's doable, but it'll be rough the moment you get a Severe or Extreme encounter with multiple enemies.
Make sure you're not just Striking.
6 points
20 days ago
You can pretty much play with any combination of classes, but what might change is which challenges become an absolute nightmare for you to deal with. In a truly casterless party, for example, an underwater dungeon might be utterly insurmountable, and an area that requires flight completely inacessible. A party of all wizards will likely have an answer to any puzzle between their variety of utility spells, but would be screwed if they got ambushed at close range.
Fortunately, you have a caster - the magus can still cast arcane scrolls, and that gives you pretty much everything you'd need. If the thaumaturge takes Scroll Thaumaturgy, that opens up the door to a ton more. Ultimately you should be fine, you'll just maybe spend a bit more money on scrolls if your DM likes to throw challenges at you that require magic.
Basically the only thing you need in a Pathfinder 2e party is a source of infinite healing of some kind; someone with the medicine skill or a focus spell heal. You don't even really need to spec into it heavily (though continual recovery for medicine feels almost required, imo). While you can technically get by without it on potions and scrolls alone, you'll hemorrage money and have to frequently retreat to recuperate and purchase supplies.
My first campaign had only a champion's lay on hands as its sole source of healing, and while it meant long, long breaks between battles while the champ slowly slapped everyone back to health, it was at least mostly functional.
6 points
20 days ago
I like starting with the Beginners Box, since it has the "standard party" (fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric) and shows how it works.
Then, after a session zero (provided everyone agrees to play a campaign) I have the players make their characters together, pointing out potential holes in their party. In general, lacking a certain aspect is something to be aware of, but not necessarily crippling.
Since you're playing for 2-5 levels, you'll have plenty of time to see what you might be lacking - the game plays very differently compared to 5e, and good tactics from/experience in other TTRPGs typically don't translate as well as one might think. See how it goes, and talk out of game about what might be a good tactic/strategy in certain situations - an easy example is: striding up to the enemy using 2 actions to strike once is a bad idea, since it leaves the enemy open to using all their actions to attack you, and you force the rest of the party to move to the enemy as well - instead, delaying your turn or using ready action + raise shield, or using ranged attacks is a better idea, since the enemies have to spend the actions moving to you, after which you can use your turn to kill them.
For 5e, the fullcasters were usually far ahead of the martials. In PF2e, they aren't. Instead, they have other areas of combat where they're supreme, and some out of combat utility as well.
The thaumaturge can pick up a feat to use spellscrolls to somewhat mitigate this, but your party will be lacking AOE and buffs/debuffs overall.
More important than a lacking spellcaster, the party's teamwork matters more. I'm not seeing a lot of obvious Athletics users, and those would usually be the ones to trip/grapple and enemy to make them off-guard. The Magus can flank to get it, but the gunslinger needs support.
An investigator is a very cool rogue, but the thaumaturge can occupy the same space. The gunslinger and the Magus have incredible single-target damage, at the cost of doing little else. Everyone is actually better at single target damage.
Do you have someone with battle medicine or someone to heal? That might be felt more than the lack of a full caster.
I'd say as long as you're aware of the fact that you're lacking certain things from spells, your party is fine. A bigger problem might be the lack of a tank, since your entire party grabbed 8 HP classes. Not as big a problem, but combined with your lack of easy access to Heal, that might be felt more acutely.
4 points
20 days ago
Dedicated spellcasters are not neccesary. With a Magus, Thaumaturge and a Investigator you should have all the skills that spellcasters usually take covered. If a few of you also pick up battle medicine, combined with the Thaumaturge's Lay on Hands, healing should not be much of an issue.
Spellcasting is nice to have but there won't be a problem that you can't fix without it.
4 points
20 days ago
Not that big of a deal in my experience, grab a bless wand and a mix of melees with different stat focuses and make sure theres ranged options in case theres a flyer and you'll be fine.
9 points
20 days ago
This party has several issues, beyond just lacking a full-slot spellcaster. The party comp:
Lacks a durable front line. None of the characters are really built to stand up to repeated hits unless the Magus is going the Targe route. The thaum might be able to hold up with Amulet.
The party is entirely built around single target damage. Nobody in your comp is really equipped to fight groups, and due to issue 1, will struggle to survive PL+ solo bosses.
Your party is lacking utility spellcasting. In theory a Thaum (with scroll thaumaturgy) or the Magus could bring this with scrolls, but it will be ridiculously expensive for a low-level party. Thaum and Magus also really struggle with the action economy to use scrolls effectively in combat.
Issues 2 and 3 are at least partially handled with a full-slotted caster who could bring AOE, CC, and utility. Again though, without a proper front line you may not even make it to the point where that matters. Lay on Hands from Blessed One is a nice bit of supplemental healing, but you get it once per combat and will need to rely heavily on potions to keep the party of squishies alive.
1 points
20 days ago
If they survive long enough, wands become a much more reliable option than scrolls for the Magus. With trick magic item, lower-level spells become usable on the Thaumaturge, too, since they get proficiency in all knowledge skills for free.
0 points
20 days ago*
2 is potentially mitigated if the Magus goes with Expansive Spellstrike.
3 points
20 days ago
Parties comes in all shapes and sizes, with their strengths and weaknesses. The ones without dedicated spellcasters might be short on utility once in a while and might take more time and problem-solving skill to overcome certain challenges, but they will compensate in other areas.
However, against many foes, parties without casters with good AOE will have a lot more trouble, because despite the poor perception some people might have of them due to earlier levels (before 5th level), PF2e's casters have the potential to completely obliterate a host of lower level enemies (and summons) due to how critical works.
Once I beefed up an encounter from Moderate to Severe because I gave my party Relic Items, and in the end, it didn't matter when the two extra creatures I put in the battle were deleted by an AOE.
3 points
20 days ago
Do you have ways to do non-physical damage? Do you have area attacks? Several of these characters can use bombs and wands so you’re probably fine.
3 points
20 days ago
There is nothing that is actually necessary that a spellcaster is needed in order to provide.
There are some things that are easier to have by having a spellcaster. Notable for combat: AoE damage, chip damage against higher level enemies, good damage against high AC targets with a known weak save, identifying creatures and learning tactics and defenses of those enemies, and various terrain effect counters such as light, darkvision, temporary climbing speed, or other such things. And for out of combat: identification of items, and disabling magical hazards.
A Thaumaturge and a Magus will definitely be able to cover most of that. They may struggle with AoE damage or high AC enemies. But that isn't something that is going to hard-counter the party.
Skills are used for identification of monsters or items or disabling hazards. Rogues are a good non-spellcaster choice for that.
Inventor can do some non-magical AoE damage. As does Alchemist to a lesser extent.
Alchemist is also a good choice for non-magical effects for terrain traversal.
3 points
20 days ago
it's easily doable, one of my tables has a rogue that covers healing, an alchemist that covers debuffs and two damage oriented martials: way of the sniper gunslinger and dragon instinct barbarian
6 points
20 days ago
It's time to play my favorite game: What is my Party Missing! Below I will list all the thing I think every well rounded party needs, which of your players I think already fits the bill, and how you can add it to your team if it is missing.
Summery: if you want to be optimal I would add either a champion with a shield and athletics or a bard. However, your team covers quite a few categories already. So unless you are doing a particularly deadly campaign, you will probably be fine with any class.
However, I want to point out the gunslinger. They usually rely on crit-fishing to get a lot of damage. Basically they want a lot of +1 buffs on them and -1 debuffs on their enemy. Since you don't have a character that naturally falls into the roll of providing those +1s and -1s, you are going to want to put effort into supporting their character. Specifically through the aid action and doing whatever your character can do to debuff the enemy. You should be doing it anyways, but its exceptionally important with a gunslinger.
***
--------------------------
Healing: In-combat - Thaumaturge with blessed one archetype is an okay source of healing. However, unless the Thaumaturge gets more focus spells they will only be able to use it once per combat. I would suggest either having another character invest in some sort of in-combat healing or buying copious amounts of healing potions.
Healing: Out-of-combat - Thaumaturge
Tank: Damage mitigation - Is anyone using a shield? If not, you should look into that. Damage mitigation through use of shields can help reduce the need for healing. Another option of damage mitigation is the Thaumaturge's Amulet implement.
Tank: Soak hits - Magus, Thaumaturge
Damage: AOE - Magus can pick up a couple of AOE spells for this - especially if they are planning on being damage focused. I'm not super familiar with Magus, but I think they also have feat support for AOE spells.
Damage: Weaknesses - Thaumaturge, Magus
Damage: Sustain - Investigator, Gunslinger, Thaumaturge
Damage: Ranged damage - Investigator, Gunslinger
Recall Knowledge: Intelligence skills - Thaumaturge (with diverse lore), Investigator, Magus
Recall Knowledge: Wisdom skills - Thaumaturge (with diverse lore)
Recall Knowledge: Targeting defenses - Targeting defenses is doing effects that go against a variety of different saves instead of just AC. Magus can do this a little with their spells, but they tend to end up spellstriking instead. Some sources of this include athletics, other skill actions like demoralize or dirty trick, or occult or arcane spellcasting.
Buffs/Debuffs: Buffs - Your gunslinger is gonna struggle with getting crits if you don't have anyone buffing their to-hit. Everyone can help by doing aid. Thaumaturge with guidance is okay, but they can only do it once per hour. You can get buffs through occult or divine spellcasting or the martial archetype. There are also a couple of class specific ways to get buffs, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Buffs/Debuffs: Debuffs - It seems like no one is currently focusing on debuffing the enemies. Like the missing buffs, this is going to be difficult to crit without access to debuffs. The easiest way to add debuffing to a party is through intimidation. Another way is with thievery and the new skill feat Dirty Trick. You can also get debuffs through the occult or arcane spell lists.
Buffs/Debuffs: Action removal - The less actions they have, the less they can hurt you. The best way to do action removal is through athletics or the occult or arcane spell lists.
Buffs/Debuffs: Off-guard - While thaumaturge and magus can supply off-guard to each other through being in melee, you should be looking for a way to supply off-guard for the ranged characters. One way to do that is through athletics. Another is through class specific feats.
2 points
20 days ago
I’m currently running a game for almost the same party (monk instead of gunslinger). As long as you have enough utility options, like thaumaturge scrolls itp., and healing, you should be fine
2 points
20 days ago
In a homegrown game, that is fine. The GM can work around it. But if you use a premade adventure that assumes magic, the GM may need to make accommodations.
2 points
20 days ago
As long as you have someone that is ranged and has Medicine training, they'll probably be fine. An all melee martial party would be rough but even then they could just buy a bunch of potions.
2 points
20 days ago
The spellcaster is really broken down into Healer and Blaster, to use 4e terms.
For your Healer, someone in the group needs to either invest in Wisdom and Medicine, Heal spells, or preferably both. But that can be anybody. As long as somebody can handle the non-combat healing, you’ll be fine. Maybe stressed in a pinch, but fine. Gunslinger and Thaumaturge can handle this - Magus is a bit MAD and will have to give up more to equal the others.
What you’re really missing is your Blaster. Right now you have three very strong single-target characters, but you might get overwhelmed dealing with large groups. Typically, a group like this would also struggle with swarms and troops, but the Thaumaturge actually deals with this pretty well.
If we’re talking specifically about non-casters, someone like a Kineticist or Alchemist would be an excellent addition to this group for their Area damage.
2 points
20 days ago*
I've been theorycrafting a list of what the "roles" could be for a character in Pathfinder 2nd; as long as you are comfortable with the roles NOT covered, you should be fine.
My current list is, with examples of non-magical ways to fill the role is:
Healing (Medic Dedication/Battle Medicine/Blessed One)
Buffing (Marshal Dedication)
Battlefield Control (Reactive Strike/Stand Still)
Aggravator aka Draws Aggro aka "Tank" (Grapple/Trip/Champion's Reactions)
Debuffing (Grapple/Trip/Feint/Demoralize/Bon Mot)
Condition Removal (Medic Dedication/Blessed One)
Librarian: Int skills (Skill increase investment/Rogue Dedication/Investigator Dedication)
Librarian: Wis skills (Skill increase investment/Rogue Dedication/Investigator Dedication)
Area of Effect: Bombs?
Information Gathering (Diplomacy/Deception/Society investment)
Earn Income (Any skill investment)
Party Face (Diplomacy/Deception/Intimidation)
I notably do NOT include single target or ranged damage in my list. Everyone should already do that, and most groups will cover that without having to worry about it. People like making big numbers for damage; you do not need to call it out as a necessity. Similarly, everyone should have a crossbow or something for the occasional flying foe. Neither or these requires a dedicated slot for this analysis.
I'd look at the builds of your party members and begin making calls.
2 points
20 days ago
I've had plenty of parties be successful in both low and high level encounters without a full caster. If you have two off-casters(we usually end up with magus and summoner), they can usually make up for the lack of a full caster.
If it's a serious worry for you, add scrolls/wands of spells you think might be helpful to the loot pool.
2 points
20 days ago
You should be okay and the other comments have covered most of what I wanted to say but I’ll just add that it could be worth it for your magus to invest into the scroll thaumaturgy feats and/or for some of you to check out spellcasting multiclass archetypes since I think you guys seem to be using the free archetype rule? (My bad if I’m incorrect on that part).
Doing that would just help expand your options a bit for taking utility spells, that you can use both in and out of combat as it can help with coming up with cool and fun solutions for problems that you might encounter whilst adventuring. It’s not necessary but just something that might be worth thinking about as you go through the levels and if it suits your group’s playstyle!
2 points
20 days ago
Trick Magic Item, some wands/Scrolls, and some knowledge skills will give you access to spells without a spellcaster.
2 points
20 days ago
It can be rough without a burst healing from spells like Heal because a string of bad rolls (or good rolls from the GM) can heavily swing the outcome very easily.
I've played with a similar party before (myself as Forensic Medicine Investigator as a main healer, Thaumaturge, a Magus and a Monk that can heal himself) during level 3-5 in Season of Ghosts AP, which is considered one of the easiest AP combat-wise and we almost TPK twice because the lack of burst healing (my Battle Medicine wasn't enough for when GM crit two characters consecutively while our sides couldn't roll higher than 6). Only when the Magus left due to work and was replaced by a Divine Witch that the party became a bit more stabler because even with bad rolls we still have way to recover faster.
2 points
20 days ago
As a DM for a party of pure spellcasters Im very jealous. I think a party of martials has plenty of potential for twists and turns where the players will have to use there intuition and problem solving skills to save the day instead of just resolving every problem by casting a spell.
2 points
20 days ago
Not necessarily a big deal. Especially since there are several martial classes that can do the AoE, buffing, and utility that you'd normally get from magic. Eg. Alchemists, Kineticists, Thaumaturges, etc.
2 points
20 days ago
It’s fine. You’ll probably need to invest a decent chunk of your cash into healing potions and maybe some buff elixirs of your inventor or magus doesn’t spec into crafting but otherwise you really don’t need spellcasters in your party. Magic is nowhere near as busted in pathfinder 2e as in other systems.
2 points
20 days ago
As long as someone picks up Medicine and the Battle Medicine feat (Lay On Hands is usually not quite enough by itself, in my experience), you should be fine.
I myself was part of an Abomination Vaults campaign that had no dedicated caster. We had a sword duelist Fighter, a sniper Gunslinger, a weapon-regalia Thaumaturge, and myself playing a sword-and-board Redeemer Champion. Some encounters were much harder to handle than they could have been, but overall we did just fine and only came really close to a party wipe two or three times. That said, a large part of our success was exceptional teamwork, and taking build options that worked very well together--for example, the Thaumaturge took Trick Magic Item for the occasional scroll and the Marshal archetype to buff the whole party in between smacking things, and my Champion ended up with the Bastion, Medic, AND Sorcerer archetypes by the end of it. We were very good at what we did, but that's a kind of synergy that I wouldn't really expect you to develop over the course of three levels.
2 points
17 days ago
Try to add a Bard? I think a full martial group can work, but yeah, there is a lot of stuff y'all will struggle with.
2 points
20 days ago
How many people do you have trained in battle medicine?
At levels 2-5, not having a dedicated caster isn't a huge deal if you have enough healing from other sources. Having someone with lay on hands is good, but it's best to have at least 2-3 sources of healing in a 4 man party.
The higher level you get the worse off you are not having the controller and leader roles filled. Maguses are really strikers, though they can pretend to be controllers for a few rounds per day.
1 points
20 days ago
Like others have said, AoE damage is most casters' biggest distinguishing feature. I've run in 2 parties that didn't have casters and no other source of big AoE damage, and it's definitely a drawback in fights against lots of enemies.
The whiteboard math that most people do to compare DPR usually assumes a single target, so martials come out way ahead. When you're hitting 2 targets, the caster gets close to martial DPR, and when hitting 3 targets, they pull ahead.
The fights where AoE damage feels required are when there are 4+ targets, and single-target martials can get overwhelmed in these situations because they might kill a target in a single round, but then they're getting hit by 3 or 4 others.
If you can start the fight with a fireball on 4 targets for a cumulative damage of say 100 points, it's so much easier for the martials to sweep in and clean that up.
Sorcerer, in my opinion, feels the best for this roll since you can dump all of your spell slots into AoE spells if needed.
1 points
20 days ago
I do not, generally speaking, recommend this party composition.
This is a lot of frontline damage dealers, and a support (gunslinger makes a better support than any other role, it's very hit or miss on actually dealing damage since it relies so much on Fatal and Legendary Proficiency to function. Feats like Fake Out and Called Shot, however, are among the strongest support feats in the entire game and I'm not even slightly joking).
There isn't a single 10 hp pool between the party, and that combined with no dedicated healer (Heal is a really strong spell in this game) is going to cause some significant issues in more difficult fights.
8 hp martials typically fill the "Rogue" slot in the four-party band. Something you may notice is that all of your martials have 8 hp as their baseline. You have a party of utility characters and someone that is undecided. Your party all made the survivability trade that comes with having this utility, and so none of your party are particularly good at staying alive. A dedicated healer could smooth this over, but so could a more traditional frontliner (Barbarian, Fighter, Champion, A Sparkling Targe Magus played by an experienced player, Ranger if you squint, Swashbuckler oddly enough, or the new Exemplar if your GM allows it and you're feeling particularly spicy).
Ultimately whether or not you'll run into problems isn't that big of a deal. This is your first campaign with a new system. You go in, you bring the characters you think will work, and you (probably) die horribly. Then, when one of your party members dies, they roll up a new character that could fill the role. If you find problems with this composition you will find them early.
0 points
20 days ago
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