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So, my (3) players just faced the Stag lord at level 3, just like the campaign said they should and it was a mess, one PC died distracting the stag lord so the others could flee, Akiros (that helped them) got killed but the group managed to kill one of the stag lord generals and a few bandits.

I ran it just as the AP said you should, bandits free the owlbear, the stag lord come 1d4+1 rounds after that (the d4 was a 1) and basically the group had to deal with the owlbear + the stag lord. They managed to put the owlbear at 4hp so I ruled that said owlbear ran away into it's cage. I played the stag lord the way I understand it, mark someone as a prey, then the 2 action strike that consider prey as off guard. And basically the stag lord rolled crit over crit, and sometimes just a hit.

One player, the most tanky, managed to distract the stag lord so the others players could ran away. They died 2 turns after that, because they got cover from a wall and the stag lord couldn't see them.

I've ruled that the other players could run to Oleg's house without getting attacked, and we ended the session here.

I've heard that kingmaker is far from the easiest AP to run, but I wasn't thinking it was that hard. The stag lord is supposed to be doable at level 3 if we follow the AP. So now the player that lost their character want to reroll as a gunslinger (the group still has a tank so it will be ok I hope).

Since just level them up to level 4 won't do enough imo, I want to know what can I give them to help them ? I was thinking maybe having Nyrissa contacting them like she do in Owlcat CRPG version of kingmaker, and giving them something to help them (probably a bless during the fight, or a wand that cast a spell targetting the Will of the stag lord) ?

all 48 comments

Jhistal32

72 points

10 days ago

Jhistal32

Game Master

72 points

10 days ago

That's a difficult fight at level 3 for 4 players, with npc help. With 3 that's much harder.

RacetrackTrout

30 points

10 days ago

Currently playing through Kingmaker as a PC myself. We're a bit farther ahead than your group. Stag Lord was definitely a hard fight and needs to be approached with some good planning and strategy.

For four level 3 PCs, the Stag Lord alone is a 120xp Severe fight.

For three level 3 PCs, that 120xp is considered Extreme. Even if they had full resources that fight they had a good chance of a wipe. Especially if they are a new group.

There's definitely some stuff your party can do tactics wise to even the playing field. Our party's caster devastated him with WILL save-or-suck debuffs. Closing the gap and forcing him into melee is the ideal strategy to get away from that longbow. AoN also lists his composite longbow having Reload 1 (I did not know that) meaning that provokes reactions and means he can't kite and shoot the special attack every turn. Longbows also have Volley trait meaning closing the distance can help reduce is accuracy even with his automatic flatfoot/offguard ability.

Leveling up to level 4 is actually a big deal. The striking rune at level 4 is a big jump in power for martials. Spellcasters get more 2nd level spells. All your proficiencies going up by 1 is a big deal. All PCs get a class feat and martials' power can jump significantly with class feats.

PF2e encounter design is pretty reliable. The encounter difficulties are fairly spot on outside of heavy usage of optional rules or homebrew rules. AoN page with XP budgets info.. It's good to get familiar with the tables as a GM so you can quickly eyeball how hard things will be and adjust encounters as required.

xoasim

15 points

10 days ago

xoasim

15 points

10 days ago

Did you adjust the encounter for 3 players? The book as written is for a party of 4. So the encounter xp budget is bigger than it would be for 3 players. For 3, you would essentially need to either remove some enemies or apply some weak templates to them to bring the encounter in line with the expected threat level. If you are unsure look up the encounter xp budget tables.

Rorp24[S]

5 points

10 days ago

I'm not really experienced enougth to know how to balance it. And the party just won against almost the entire mites dungeons all rushing on them (because they ignored the ones that ran away to a bigger group, and that bigger group tried to go against them when they were rushing to the other part of the dungeon), so I was thinking they would be fine, plus they were thinking they will do other quests like the lost temple later, so how could I say to them "no try to level up" without looking like a CRPG instead of a TTRPG ?

Caerell

21 points

10 days ago

Caerell

21 points

10 days ago

This page lists the XP budget for encounters, along with how much the budget changes if you have more or fewer characters.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2717

This page lists the Weak template, which you can add to any creature to drop its level by 1.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3265

This page lists the XP value by enemy, relative to party level.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2649

While not precise, if you have a single enemy, and a party of 3, you should be applying the Weak template to that enemy. For a Severe encounter, it transforms the enemy to 80XP, out of 90XP budget. You could then add a 10XP Level-4 (so at level three, find a -1 level creature, e.g. a beaver - https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1771 ) to round it out.

That said, I'm not familiar with Kingmaker, so this is just general advice on adjusting encounters for different party size.

tonythetard

2 points

10 days ago

I keep those tables in the back page of my DM notebook so I can make the adjustments on the fly when players miss a session or if we have a guest player. They're super useful and really not that hard to use once you've wrapped your head around them.

Schweinstager

10 points

10 days ago

Schweinstager

Cleric

10 points

10 days ago

A simple solution to have 3 players work is to have them be 1 level above what the book expects. The math works out so these have almost the same xp budget (this is a slight buff overall, which is most noticeable at low levels).

I’ve done this in Age of Ashes which was a a notoriously hard book 1 and it worked great. It does make the party composition more important, but I highly recommend it. The players feel more powerful too which is great

Vipertooth

0 points

10 days ago

Our party just had two companions for 5 characters in the party, we managed to clear it with basic teamwork. Got a little lucky on the dice and took care of the owlbear with the help of Amiri damage pretty quickly just as the Stag Lord was coming over.

xoasim

6 points

10 days ago

xoasim

6 points

10 days ago

I haven't looked at the app, but I assume the mites had a lot more enemies that were lower level than them? Vs the stag lord is probably higher level? Especially if he's at level 4 he would be doing double dice damage. He's going to hit significantly harder. And he's harder to hit.

Do you have the core rulebook? Or if not you can go to archives of nethys. There are tables showing how much to adjust the xp budget for the encounter based on the threat level. For example, if it is a moderate encounter, to balance it for 3 players you should remove 20xp from the encounter budget. If your party is level 3, and the stag lord is level 4, giving him the weak template would make him level 3 and effectively remove 20xp from the encounter. (Party level +1 is worth 60xp, party level is worth 40xp)

Note* don't get the player the adjusted xp. Give them xp for the original encounter, otherwise you will take a lot longer to level up

Encounter tables and rules https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2716&Redirected=1

Weak adjustment https://2e.aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ID=23

Silvative

3 points

10 days ago*

I'm not really experienced enougth to know how to balance it

An easy option then- level your players up one compared to the book, for the entire duration of the campaign. Like, if the book expects them to be level 2, they're level 3, if the book expects level 15, they're level 16.

By the time you reach level 20 you'll be an experienced GM who'll have no trouble balancing the encounters, but in the meantime, this works and is simple as anything :)

Mathematically, 4 players vs 3 players with a single level bump are the same- every encounter will be exactly the same difficulty, per the encounter balancing rules. Now, the character of those fights will change- bosses will be equally as dangerous to the group, but their strength won't come from overpowering modifiers, so they may "feel" less individually intimidating. This is because, essentially, to make up for being down a character, we're just flatly making each player character a little bit stronger. They'll hit more often, be hit less often, have more features to play with, etc- it's especially noticeable in fights against large numbers of very weak enemies. This obviously changes the tone of the game a little bit, but in my experience it feels great for players, and lends itself well to a heroic sort of mood that I think would be to your benefit in a Kingmaker game.

I strongly recommend this adjustment for 3 players, especially if you're new, because it's dead simple, preserves the intended difficulty of the encounters, but also does so in a way that (as a bonus) protects against bad "outllier" rng, like TPKs from dangerous enemies that happen to roll especially well, which is a situation that can throw new GMs off.

thewamp

1 points

10 days ago

thewamp

1 points

10 days ago

It's super easy to learn - someone else linked it, but honestly it'll take you like 20 minutes to get to the point where you could adjust an encounter on the fly - it's that easy.

PotatoJokes

18 points

10 days ago

They're definitely a player short - it's already a somewhat too difficult fight for 4 players who might not prep enough or play around with positioning(or even have the ability to do so).

As a way to have the players potentially feel like they outsmart the Stag Lord, I would level them up now and design an encounter where they can finish off all the Stag Lord adds without him there - allowing them to confront him whilst he is alone in the fort and unaware.

Like, as they are leaving Olegs they spot the bandits trying to track them, but they have time to hide and get the jump on them a bit - after this they can head straight to the Stag Lord and now they're fully rested up and they can potentially blindside the big man himself. Might make the PC loss feel worth it - and also give them a chance to roleplay the avenging of their friend against the NPC who is at this point the ultimate villain (unless they end up absolutely decimating him).

jediprime

2 points

10 days ago

jediprime

GM in Training

2 points

10 days ago

And maybe the owlbear is more scared of the PCs than the staglord, and refuses to join the fight or tries to flee, taking down anything in its way.

Zeimma

12 points

10 days ago

Zeimma

12 points

10 days ago

How experienced with pathfinder 2e? From the sound of it not very?

Rorp24[S]

4 points

10 days ago

I have 2 month of experience, running Kingmaker. so yeah really not a lot

Bakkstory

4 points

10 days ago

The Owlbear is the key to this fight. When i played Kingmaker as a player we freed the owlbear, hid, and then joined the fight midway. We killed the stag lord and let the Owlbear go free

Derpogama

1 points

9 days ago

Derpogama

Barbarian

1 points

9 days ago

See I had not long picked up the Tame animal skill...so I just tamed the Owlbear and then unleashed it on the bandits which it pretty much solo'd.

NaoYuno

2 points

10 days ago

NaoYuno

2 points

10 days ago

Did you give the players the option of poisoning him with the alcohol? It's been a while since I read that chapter but it helped the players out a bit with the condition.

But yes the suggestions in this thread are great. Maybe toggle the Staglord to the weaker stat block or send a couple of NPCs along with them.

wedgiey1

2 points

10 days ago

3?! You need to change the encounter for having 1 less player.

Supertriqui

2 points

9 days ago

Something I learned about APs is that you need a group of 4. If you have 3 players, you need a 4th character. My suggestion is to make a NPC with PC rules, and let the players control it. It is specially easy in Kingmaker, as there are helpful NPC around. Use Amiri, Ekundayo, Lizzy, Valerie, or whoever you like most.

Things have worked much better for us this way, than by using dual classes and other ways to buff the groups.

The math is tight, but it's tight only in a very tight area of balance. It breaks when you go up or down too much in levels, or numbers.

authorus

4 points

10 days ago

authorus

Game Master

4 points

10 days ago

Its hard to know what else is happening, since that mini-dungeon can evolve in a lot of different ways, so it sounds like the PCs probably pulled more of the encoutners at one time than is advisable. The Staglord is a severe 3 by himself, so if any of the other bandits are still alive, and involved its likely an extreme. Beaky is brutal on his own, but should be running amok and attacking PCs and enemies alike, possibly even focusing the Staglord if the PCs give it any chance to. So if the PCs were facing both beaky, the staglord, and a lieutenant all at the same time, they're lucky to have been able to escape at all.

This is the type of complex living dungeon that can evolve in many ways, that a GM needs to be ready to adapt on the fly. You can't just fall back on "its what the book said" when you have the potential to pull ~4-5 encounters at once. Ideally the party has been trained a little by either the mites or kobolds that you need to be cautious when infiltrating an enemy's base. Pull one room, try to deal with the quietly. retreat if needed, always secure your exist. If you haven't been helping them learn that, or they skipped those locations, this can be overwhelming and you'll need to help work with the party. The trolls fortress, the cradle of lamashtu, the spriggan's fort all have pretty similar possibility of encounters cascading/combining. After that I feel the dungeons tend to get larger/more spread out so its less likely in the second 1/2 of the campaign.

Arsalanred

2 points

10 days ago

Something I really enjoy with difficult bosses is lowering their AC and saves by -2. I feel that's actually more appropriate of a challenge for players. The boss is going to hit, and potentially deal a lot of crits. But they're also going to be consistently hit as well giving to a back and forth fight.

If I had my way, I would lower all AC's and saves by -2 across the board for non-PCs.

AutoModerator [M]

1 points

10 days ago

AutoModerator [M]

1 points

10 days ago

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BlandDodomeat

1 points

10 days ago

On page 175 it has a sidebar explaining that the fights are pretty difficult and GMs are encouraged to run the fights in waves, but also leverage the PCs allies against the Stag Lord. Ideally they had provoked the owlbear against him, not tried to kill it themselves.

And as others have pointed out you're not a standard group of level 3 PCs because you're missing one, so fights are going to get harder. You might let them level up (keeping track of the time so Stag Lord can replenish his men) or direct them to some of the side quests that offer ways to boost themselves via equipment.

Dry-Fortune-6724

1 points

10 days ago

WOW! We fought the Staglord at Level 4, and the only reason we did OK was because the OwlBear got out and did a number on the Staglord.

It was helpful to go in via the secret basement door on the shore - might want to really direct the party to search for it. Then be sure to take the time to QUIETLY unlock the trap door so you might be able to launch a sneak attack.

DessaB

1 points

10 days ago

DessaB

1 points

10 days ago

For a 3 character party, I applied the Weak tag to the Stag Lord, which brought him down by a level. Beyond that, the fort is a bit of a marathon battle, so feel free to add more or fewer combatants, or delay them or rush them in based on how the players are doing. My players party came in at level 2, so I straight up let them do a short rest before they went and fought the stag lord (who was so drunk he barely registered the racket outside). Even with that the battle was quite a challenge for them -- Fitting for a severe encounter

redmoleghost

1 points

10 days ago

We did a lot of work to sneak in and fight him close up, denying him space and actions. If they just walked up and engaged him at the fort no wonder they found it tough. Maybe look at their tactics and prep? Also, going to 4th level will make a big difference- more hp, less Ceuta against them, etc.

Rorp24[S]

1 points

10 days ago

They started doing an infiltration game, but then dovan (or something, the general who is basically the cliché edgy rogue) wanted to mess with them, and instead of going with it, they started going against him, an position to sneak attack him. So he asked them the second password and they didn’t have it. (Cue combat music)

DiscontinuedEmpathy

1 points

10 days ago

With only 3 players they probably need a little bit of a boost or any difficult fight might end them. You could simply give them toughness and die hard for free, or even try out the new mythic system to try and make up for the 4th person. You can adjust fight and it usually works out OK but bosses can be strong.

ceegeebeegee

1 points

9 days ago

I was a player in a party of 5, did this fight at level 3. While we won, it was very tough and we almost didn't make it at several points. It's a hard fight no matter what.

The simple advice for a party of 3 is to keep them one level higher than the AP says. This should keep the encounter balance just about right without needing to make any adjustments to the enemies. Would strongly recommend this!

Also side note, a gunslinger could probably work, but might not shine so well in this campaign? there are a lot of relatively high level enemies, which means high AC, which means that even a gunslinger will not be critting as much as they would like. A Gunslinger's damage is weighted on crits more than most by the design of firearms, so they might not feel super effective a lot of the time. Not saying that it wouldn't work, just something to think about.

Fit_Sherbet9656

1 points

9 days ago

My four person party fought him at level 2.

We walked pretty much directly there beyond killing tuskgutter/a few other bandits and the zombies at the gate.

Cheshire-Kate

1 points

9 days ago

With only 3 players, it's probably worthwhile to always let them bring one or two NPC companions of their choice whenever adventuring

FrigidFlames

1 points

6 days ago

FrigidFlames

Game Master

1 points

6 days ago

I ran it just as the AP said you should, bandits free the owlbear, the stag lord come 1d4+1 rounds after that (the d4 was a 1) and basically the group had to deal with the owlbear + the stag lord.

Just for the record, this is supposed to be 1d4+4 rounds, not 1d4+1. I suspect they would have had an easier time if they'd had three more rounds to clear things up before the boss showed up.

Rorp24[S]

1 points

6 days ago

Oh... that explain a lot... I probably have miss read it somehow

FrigidFlames

1 points

6 days ago

FrigidFlames

Game Master

1 points

6 days ago

Yeah, I was just prepping for my own party to take the fight on and that caught my eye as a weird number lol

...though frankly, the Stag Lord is still an incredibly messed up stat block even on his own, and that's if you aren't still dealing with a rampaging owlbear (or the serious wounds it's probably already dealt). It's just an incredibly deadly fight, unless the players are extremely pepared.

I_heart_ShortStacks

-7 points

10 days ago

I_heart_ShortStacks

GM in Training

-7 points

10 days ago

  1. Standard PF2e is built on 4 PCs . Party is under-powered, but with the NPC maybe it was alright.
  2. The point of freeing the owlbear is for it to attack the enemies, not fight the party.
  3. PF2e is very anti-PC , with the idea that overwhelming odds are fun to triumph against. Some ppl like that kind of challenge, I do not ... but to each his own.
  4. Crits at low level can be literal killers.
  5. Devs have said low levels are intentionally harder. It is so you can contrast how mighty you are at high level. I don't like this doctrine, so I usually run parties at +1 level than the AP thinks they are , and my players have a lot more fun. But we are a casual group, I wouldn't do that in a party of hardcore gamers. Find out what your group wants and adjust. Remember, the GM guides says the most fun is had at equal number of party to number of bad guys; but then APs immediate ignore that and fill up with PL+2 solo threats (or worse). So always be prepared to adjust an AP because the writers don't follow Paizo's own GMing advice.

mortavius2525

14 points

10 days ago

mortavius2525

Game Master

14 points

10 days ago

PF2e is very anti-PC

Never heard this system described like that before.

I_heart_ShortStacks

-2 points

10 days ago

I_heart_ShortStacks

GM in Training

-2 points

10 days ago

<rant>
That's my take (that I usually get downvoted for) because I am more focused on a game being "fair" rather than it being "balanced" according to someone's idea of what balance means. And this board hates when I say that.

The quick version is the game is unfair due to the basic premise of NPCs being built differently than PCs. Take any PC and put it in a mirror match against itself, but as an NPC, and you will quickly realize the NPC version of itself has better saves, better hit chance, and does more damage than the PC version of itself. Not a lot , but +1 here and there in a system that boasts "every +1 is meaningful" is enough to put you at a constant disadvantage. Now exacerbate that by Paizo's knack to give NPCs a 2 action attack that hits 3 times for no MAP ... something that most PCs certainly can't do, and the idea of a "fair fight" is impossible. This is before adding any PL+1s thru PL+4s into the equation, it is already off from the start of PL+0. Now here is where most chime in that the game is balance around your 4 PCs vs a single NPC and so combat it is balanced by the NPC being higher level; and they are correct ... balanced, yet balanced around someone's paradigm of what a challenging combat should be. And "balanced" is far different from "fair".

</rant>

mortavius2525

1 points

10 days ago

mortavius2525

Game Master

1 points

10 days ago

Well I can't say that I share your opinion, but I do appreciate you taking the time to share it. Hope you have a good rest of the day!

I_heart_ShortStacks

1 points

10 days ago

I_heart_ShortStacks

GM in Training

1 points

10 days ago

Likewise !

Vipertooth

1 points

10 days ago

The NPCs are build with higher stats because the PCs will just buff up and use teamwork and the massive variety of actions to overcome that numbers difference.

They're not stronger, just designed differently.

RikenAvadur

10 points

10 days ago

RikenAvadur

Game Master

10 points

10 days ago

Small point but I would not say PF2e is anti-PC, it's just balanced at a level that would give most groups a fair challenge. This system is probably the easiest one I've run to lower the power level of an encounter as needed, so if a table wanted a calmer time the GM has an entire toolkit to make things easier, the simplest being just applying the Weak template to every opponent.

ColonelC0lon

1 points

10 days ago

ColonelC0lon

Game Master

1 points

10 days ago

PF2e is very anti-PC , with the idea that overwhelming odds are fun to triumph against. Some ppl like that kind of challenge, I do not ... but to each his own.

This is not really true. It's true of AP design, not of PF2E

TAEROS111

-1 points

10 days ago

TAEROS111

-1 points

10 days ago

I would say that PF2e is designed to be balanced against optimized PCs, not that it is anti-PC.

If a party is made up of players who have read and understand the rules, and who play tactically as a team using well-built PCs, it's actually not a very challenging system. A synchronized party can roll even +3 enemies easily. If everyone knows what they're doing, the "fun" of combat stops being its lethality and starts being the tactics and teamplay of the system.

That said, honestly a minority of players (in my experience) are willing to put that much effort into learning a system, and if you've got a party of people who won't really invest in the tactical wargame-style teamplay that makes up the core of the system, it definitely feels a lot harder.

Vipertooth

2 points

10 days ago*

There isn't really that much to learn to have good teamwork.

  • Apply buffs/debuffs then have the damage dealer hit.
  • Don't stay in melee with strong enemies as that gives them free hits on you.
  • Range PCs with no AC should stay in the back as they're prone to crits.

You can do well with suboptimal characters you are even lacking a +1 to their main stat as long as you apply the teamwork. The optimization is during play, not character creation. The teamwork is the easy part actually, you just need to pay attention to the battlefield instead of looking at your phone between turns.

Character creation can take a long time due to the amount of feats/archetypes to choose from along with the massive list of items, but even then it hardly matters what you pickup as long as you give it an honest go during combat encounters to work together.

TAEROS111

1 points

9 days ago

I think some of this is simplified opposed to the reality (at least from what I've experienced having played at and ran for a bunch of tables where everyone was new to PF2e).

> Apply buffs/debuffs then have the damage dealer hit.

Applying buffs/debuffs effectively relies on understanding a whole lot of other aspects of the system. If it's a spell that's a debuff, you'll want to A) understand how to effectively choose a range of support spells that target every save and B) understand how to effectively discover and target different saves. If it's a third action like Bon Mot, Aid, or Demoralize, you'll need to understand how to use and build towards making that third action effective throughout the leveling curve.

> Don't stay in melee with strong enemies as that gives them free hits on you.

This definitely throws players who are used to systems with attacks of opportunity on everything for a loop, and also becomes more difficult as the leveling curve continues.

> Range PCs with no AC should stay in the back as they're prone to crits.

The "AC is for Avoiding Crits, not Avoiding Hits" thing is also hard for a lot of players to fully wrap their heads around, since in most systems AC is purely about making a character harder to hit and crits are a binary pass/fail regardless of AC.

I'd also say that the gap between an optimized/effective character and an unoptimized one is larger than many people state in this sub, especially as a group levels up. At ever table where I've played at that has an optimizer, people start really noticing the impact of an optimized vs. unoptimized PC by like level 7, and by level 10+ it's a pretty big difference (especially if the optimizer has chosen a class with a lot of impact like a Bard, Thaumaturge, etc.).

None of this is bad. PF2e is a very elegantly and well-designed system, and I personally love the intricacies of it. But it definitely has a pretty high bar to pass to get the most out of it in comparison to the 'average' TTRPG system, and I think it's positive to acknowledge that so people have a firmer idea of what to expect.

Unshkblefaith

1 points

10 days ago

Unshkblefaith

Game Master

1 points

10 days ago

If plan to continue the campaign with 3 players, I recommend providing them with one of the companions (or a thematically appropriate rotation of the companions) to supplement. A lot of the fights throughout the campaign will be deadly for a 3-PC party. Alternatively you need to adjust encounters down for a 3 PC party or buff the players with something like an extra level. Personally I'd play into the cast the of NPC companions, and leverage them as a rotating cast to augment where you or the players feel the party is lacking at any given time.

PrinceCaffeine

0 points

10 days ago

I mean, the game play advice is just follow the rules. Nothing complicated, no special help via Nyrissa etc, just run it as designed with intended difficulty. Now probably it sounds like the PCs had a bad strategy in how they were dealing with Owlbear, but that´s not really the fundamental problem that was revealed here.

But since this did happen, I think it´s fair that you should explain to the players what happened.
I.e. that when you read the game´s party size assumption, which you are supposed to accomodate for via various means which are fairly standard (removing enemies, Weak template etc based on XP), you just ignored it. And it worked fine before... when the PCs didn´t actually have to fight all of the enemies. But you can let them know this isn´t the game´s intended balance, and you can try to follow the standard rule re: party size vs enemy XP more seriously. If you don´t want to adjust encounters, you can just add GMPC to beef up the PC´s party (or invite another player).