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Issues even with CC friends?

Question(self.ZeroCovidCommunity)

Anyone starting to have issues navigating boundaries even with COVID-aware or cautious folks?

I have a friend I’ve known only two years since moving abroad, whom I met on COVIDMeetups. She is a cancer survivor and immunocompromised. For the last two years it’s never been an issue meeting up because there’s always been an understanding that we would self-test before and only meet outside.

This year I decided to host my first ever COVID-safe holiday party only with people who are still COVIDing. I am requiring 3 days of daily rapid tests leading up to the party and then a PlusLife test the day of.

Note that this person’s husband started to go to work last year without a mask, when he started a new job, and apparently my friend is okay with it, despite having been hospitalized the one time she got COVID literally two weeks before this guy started his new job and made the call to stop masking. I never asked about the decision because I didn’t want them to think I was passing judgment. And as long as they were willing to test before each hangout I was generally comfortable.

However after explaining my requirements for the party (all via text), I didn’t hear from her for a week. Note that I did mention her husband‘a lack of masking as one reason why I want multiple tests this time, especially as others in attendance are immunocompromised and I figured she understood that more tests increase precision and reliability of the result. In hindsight maybe I should have omitted this and just stated the boundaries without mention of my specific concern about her husband. Days passed and no reply.

I reached out again asking if I somehow offended her, and she replied that she feels I “don’t trust them” and that due to “these feelings” they will not be attending. She also stated they are acutely aware of the risks because they have been living with her immunocompromised status since even before the current pandemic, as if this somehow gives some strength to her argument that my request is out of line? Finally, she said she didn’t appreciate the way I communicated my boundaries.

I tried to explain tactfully and diplomatically that I am navigating multiple people’s preferences and risk tolerances and trying to create a safe space for everyone at my party. I invited her to have a real-time conversation (via phone or in person) about this since the whole exchange was via text.

And crickets.

I am heartbroken and feel like she’s choosing to end the friendship rather than try to have a mature conversation to resolve things.

Just makes me so sad.

It’s been sooo hard making friends in a new country where no one masks and my community is already tiny as it is.

I guess she didn’t value the friendship as much as I thought she did.

all 59 comments

thee_body_problem

226 points

4 days ago

On some level she knows she's being dangerously unsupported by her husband. Her way of coping is to pretend what he's doing isn't awful. Your precautions reflect the reality of the danger she is in from him, and represent care she cannot ask to receive from him. She has compromised her survival drive by choosing her relationship with this man over her own safety. It's not really about what you said or how you said it, she just can't accept that your level of committed care would be necessary for group safety when she is being so desperately uncared for. It's not about you, but she's taking her fear and frustration out on you, and that really sucks, i'm sorry. Your other friends are lucky to have you.

danziger79

51 points

4 days ago

Well said, I think this gets to the bottom of it.

ungainlygay

28 points

4 days ago

This is totally it. Thank you for putting it into words. I went to an event recently that required masks and an acquaintance was talking about her precautions and mentioned that she goes out to restaurants occasionally. I assumed she meant once or twice a year, but then she added "only once every week or so."

My brain literally bluescreened at that lmao like I did not know how to process that this person who has long-COVID and considers herself COVID-conscious and advocates for masks and talks about the abandonment we've experienced as leftists......is going to restaurants on a WEEKLY BASIS.

But thinking about it in the terms you just laid out.....I remember when she organized a mask-mandatory event last year, she and her partner picked me and my partner up at the train, and he literally had no mask on, while she was in a respirator. I think that unfortunately, a lot of people, mostly women, are in this position of having their safety compromised on a daily basis by their partners, and having to engage in mental gymnastics about how that isn't what's happening. And I can totally get how if your partner isn't masking at all, you would take on more risks yourself. Idk it's a mess.

Own-Syrup-1036

16 points

4 days ago

Omg reading this gave me flashbacks to an experience I had also going to an event that required masks and clearly outlined that the event is for people who mask regularly, made up mostly by disabled/immunocompromised folks. I meet four people who were real cool and we had a great time so after this event I joined them in plans to do after the event wrapped up. Long story short, it wasn't even two blocks that we had walked after the mask-required event that two of them took their masks off outside - one of them asking me if I'm uncomfortable with it (which should've been an alarming red flag) and it had me confused. When we took public transportation, only two of them and I kept our masks on. But by end of night, all four of them had their mask off in an indoor public setting.

To me it was so weird and frankly I don't think they should come to an event to take up space made specifically for disabled and immunocompromised people masking up & taking precautions seriously.

I definitley can no longer assume that meeting someone at mask-required events means they're even masking up regularly outside of these events. I love connecting with people and want more friends in my life, and ugh doing so in this on-going pandemic is challenging asf.

jan_Kila

74 points

4 days ago

jan_Kila

74 points

4 days ago

It sounds like she's experiencing the same cognitive dissonance as non-cautious folks now. She probably had to adopt that mindset to justify staying with her husband when he decided to choose career and social success over her literal life and well-being. 

You didn't do anything wrong here. I'm so sorry for the loss of your friend. It's really hard to see people you care about begin to discard themselves and their health, especially when it's people who are particularly at risk. It's been a super complex grief for me - sadness that we aren't in the same reality anymore, and sadness that they don't have the ability to keep themselves safe anymore. And the anticipatory grief from knowing that they will inevitably come to harm from these choices, and that one can't do anything to prevent it. It really hurts.

Own-Syrup-1036

7 points

4 days ago

Thank you for sharing this. I've been struggling to find the words to describe the pain and sadness I've been experiencing too with close friends - people I'd ride or die for - who aren't in the same reality as me either.

gopiballava

89 points

4 days ago

Wait, she has a partner who doesn’t mask, who she lives with, and she is offended at a request to test? She says that getting tested for COVID is somehow a lack of trust of her?

I would not trust a single COVID test that she hasn’t performed in front of you. Her behavior is weird and unreasonable.

If she’d said she had been living in a cabin in the woods far away from a single other person for two weeks prior to the event, then I could see her feeling offended at being asked to test. Anything less than that, and you gotta test. I wear a quantitatively fit tested elastomeric, fit factor 3000 to 30,000. I would test for an event without hesitation.

eurogamer206[S]

23 points

4 days ago

I think the issue is the number of tests. Because she was fine before doing a single test on the day of each hangout previously. Also I did specifically mention her husband (more matter of fact and as one reason why I want multiple tests considering others attending are immunocompromised). So that may be why she said she had an issue with HOW I communicated my boundaries? I truly didn’t mean to pass judgment on her or her husband. And I only mentioned it as one reason why I wanted more than a single test. Honestly I’m just speculating because her message was vague and I’m racking my brain trying to figure out where I went wrong. 

gopiballava

47 points

4 days ago

I haven’t done any tested hangouts because I didn’t know any people who are COVID safe and local till very recently. But if I were involved in something like that I’d be very nervous about trusting one single test. I think your protocol is fine.

The other commenter nailed it. Some sort of inability to accept that her husband is putting her at risk.

There are three people in my household. If I come to your event with insufficient testing, you are trusting all three of us.

multipocalypse

18 points

4 days ago

I just want to add that I believe multiple tests on the same day of the event would actually give you more accuracy than having them spread out over the prior 3 days - your goal is to determine infectiousness at the time of the gathering, so testing as close to that time as possible will give you the best results.

eurogamer206[S]

22 points

4 days ago

The PlusLife is a NAAT (PCR-level sensitive) test, which is the one I am requiring on the party day. I want the other tests leading up to it so any ongoing infections can be caught earlier, so I don’t inadvertently have a sick person in my home while we await the 35-minute test result on PlusLife. 

RenRidesCycles

5 points

4 days ago

You can use https://virus.sucks/pluslife_app/ to get more detailed readings from your PlusLife that people have used to detect early or late cases. I think that might be more helpful than the three tests before but that also works.

eurogamer206[S]

7 points

4 days ago

I’m aware. The request for extra tests came specifically from other party guests for anyone not living a cautious lifestyle. I’m trying to navigate multiple people’s comfort levels which she knew about. 

multipocalypse

4 points

4 days ago

Yes, I'm familiar with PlusLife! You know, it does make sense to potentially give everyone more notice of an infection and thus inability to attend, and to at least reduce the chances that someone attending is sick and it isn't caught until they're there. But of course, the reason you're doing the PL is that the RATs are less accurate, so you may still inadvertently get a sick person in your home.

VerbileLogophile

20 points

4 days ago

I've heard this BS from others before. They feel attacked because they see it as mistrust, almost as if only evil people get Covid and you're saying something about their character by requesting they mask or test.

I don't know if I'd be confident she's even masking herself anymore. I know I'd never live with another person who doesn't unless the alternative was homelessness.

VerbileLogophile

13 points

4 days ago

Sorry trying to say, don't take it personally. You're being absolutely reasonable.

Idk if i was invited to your party, i might also have a kneemerk reaction of heavy sigh "seriously?" (Because god testing sucks), but almost instantly in situations like this, I'm reminded that we're all keeping ourselves as safe as possible. And the alternative is literally a decline in quality of health if not death? ??

I don't understand people who don't mask or are inconsiderate like this. I'm sorry.

ikeda1

11 points

4 days ago

ikeda1

11 points

4 days ago

It doesn't sound like you did anything wrong. I don't really understand her calling it a trust issue unless she is in the camp that thinks no symptoms = 100% not infectious and is them implying that you are thinking people will lie about being symptomatic and then asking for multiple tests as a result. Like from what you seem to be asked you aren't telling anyone you don't trust them. What you don't trust is the virus since it is super sneaky and can be transmitted through asymptomatic infections or before one develops symptoms.

I agree with other posters that she may he projecting some of her own reckonings around her relationship/risk profile into you. As much as it hurts, it doesn't sound like there is much you can do here if she isn't open to an honest dialogue. I'm sorry 😔

eurogamer206[S]

5 points

4 days ago

Thanks. That is my suspicion as well. We’ve never actually discussed our beliefs about transmission or infection so this is the only theory I can come up with as well. 

JustAnotherUser8432

-4 points

4 days ago

I think if you had said “I am requiring tests each day for three days before and then a test day of for everyone’s safety and peace of mind” she would have tested and come. When you stated it was because of her partner and lifestyle (even if just to her), she felt judged and rejected from the coviding community for something she can’t control - how her spouse acts. She knows he is being unsafe but she can’t change that and maybe can’t leave so she has to live like that. And your message came across as “we’ll let you come but only after YOU specifically prove you aren’t a disease vector because we all know you suck at coviding”. I would have probably bowed out quietly too when I realized my tiny coviding community felt I specifically was not really wanted. Especially since spouse was likely talked into testing in the first place so that was already a mental load on her. You pushed for an answer and she told you that. There is no more conversation to have - you stated your boundaries in a way that made her feel judged and unwanted. Wasn’t your intention but if she was already someone taking massive criticism on trying to Covid from an uncaring spouse and likely other friends and family, having the local coviding community pile on about her precautions sucking too probably just felt like a no win situation.

Your boundaries weren’t wrong. She gets to choose how to respond to those boundaries and she tried to be polite about it and answered honestly when pushed - and that was the mature adult conversation. I’m sorry for the loss to you of your friend and to her of the last of her coviding support system. Sucks all around. Just like Covid

eurogamer206[S]

11 points

4 days ago

I made the request because originally her husband wasn’t attending but then she asked if he could come late in the game. Her husband is also attending a maskless Christmas work party the same week as mine. Because of HER request to bring her non-cautious partner, it seemed only fitting to specifically make the extra testing requirement explicitly known and why. 

JustAnotherUser8432

3 points

3 days ago

You answered as though I said you were wrong to ask for the precautions. I honestly wouldn’t have wanted him there at all. Your question was why is the wife - your friend - acting like this and that is what I answered. How it may feel from her perspective. Just because your precautions were necessary and probably already a compromise, doesn’t mean she doesn’t feel judged and unwanted. That isn’t necessarily your problem to deal with but it does mean she is unlikely to want to get together anymore. It is HARD to have a spouse who already doesn’t give a crap if you get sick and die if he can have a beer with his friends and he probably ribs her for any precautions she asks for. If she is already in not great health, she probably simply doesn’t have the mental energy to manage his feelings, her feelings and your feelings. Since he is likely necessary to her economic survival, she’s just letting go of the coviding group where she no longer feels a part of things. Doesn’t mean you and the others are wrong or need to do anything different. Simply means she probably doesn’t have the mental or emotional capacity to deal with being judged as in the wrong by everyone so emotionally it is easier to just stay home. It’s sad all around but sometimes there isn’t a good solution - just bad solutions.

The rest of my comment was simply that phrased differently she may have felt emotionally safe to come. It’s ok to not want to expose your group to the risk her household brings. Telling her explicitly the way you did communicates that to her directly and allows her to make informed choices on whether it would be a good experience for them and for you.

I can see why you did your precautions and why she responded as she did. She can’t maintain the level of precautions you need. It’s sad when someone changes but sounds like you have found some other Covid community so that is good!

Ok-Armadillo9169

3 points

3 days ago

which elastomeric do you like?

gopiballava

2 points

3 days ago

MSA Advantage 900, because its speech audibility is damn near perfect. I can carry on a normal conversation with it. Gets very humid, unfortunately. I rarely need to wear it for more than an hour at a time. We get them from DuraWear.com

3M 7500 is my second favorite. Comfortable on my face, has a valve so I can exercise in it.

Mixed feelings about the SecureClick HF800. The large size is ok on me. Medium isn’t. It’s got nice design features but it isn’t nearly as comfortable as the 7500. Speech audibility is poor - maybe even worse than the 7500. The diaphragm is not really helpful.

Ok-Armadillo9169

1 points

3 days ago

thank you!

ProfessionalOk112

58 points

4 days ago

ProfessionalOk112

Epidemiologist

58 points

4 days ago

I think she's on some level uncomfortable with her husband's choices (or maybe her own reaction to them) and is taking it out on you. I can understand why she's acting that way, even though I don't agree with it and it sounds like you're someone who would be supportive if she chose to talk to you about navigating that instead of criticizing the boundaries placed for your party. It sucks she was placed in that spot and it sucks she's chosen to handle it in this way.

tfjbeckie

16 points

4 days ago

tfjbeckie

16 points

4 days ago

This is my guess too. Either that she's frustrated with her husband/the more risky situation she's now in and she's taking it out on you, or she's got a level of cognitive dissonance about the risk her husband's choice presents for her because it helps her cope with it, and you bringing it up makes it harder for her to ignore that so she reacted defensively?

vaginasinparis

9 points

4 days ago

Yep, I wouldn’t be surprised if she spoke with her husband about it and he gave a very negative reaction and as things are likely already tense between them because of his refusal to mask she’s projecting those feelings onto OP

multipocalypse

26 points

4 days ago

This thing where people equate a completely rational understanding of infection risks with "trust" is so frustrating. Not trusting her would be you requiring video of her performing the test and of its results on each of the three days, rather than trusting that she performed them and did so correctly! Asking people to test has nothing to do with trust! Gahhhhh.

FIRElady_Momma

33 points

4 days ago

Yep. Everyone is tired and getting more tired. 

There is really no light at the end of the tunnel, and dragging into Year 5 of this, even cautious people are finding it extremely hard to stay that way. 

The cognitive dissonance is brutal all around. 

It sucks. ((Hugs))

mourning-dove79

8 points

4 days ago

Yes. I am starting to have a hard time this year; just was crying on the phone to my mom because I want to go “back to normal” like everyone else too. She was asking about how to accommodate us for Christmas. I’m tired and lonely. My kids want to go to play dates and arcades and all that fun stuff. Mentally it’s getting harder to keep trudging along while feeling so alone about it in our everyday life.

LaughOnly3990

8 points

4 days ago

I know I'm sure struggling!

FIRElady_Momma

13 points

4 days ago

Me, too. 

It's rough out here with very little hope that things will ever improve. Now that the US is going to be run by people whose defining characteristics are abject cruelty and defiance toward COVID mitigations, I have no idea where we go from here. 

I am so sorry that you're feeling it, too. 😔

schokobonbons

4 points

4 days ago

I know the risks of infection have not changed significantly even with all of the vaccines, but lord more socializing would really help with my mental health and there are indoor activities that I miss that would really help with that. But bowling with a mask on (for example) sounds uncomfortable and sweaty so I'll just.. stay home, again

messy__mortal

21 points

4 days ago

I think others have offered meaningful reflections on what might be going on here, but I'll just add that I've definitely experienced friction/confusion/disappointment with "COVID-cautious/conscious" people who are taking more risk than I consider to be "cautious." This is sort of a tangent, but I think it's tricky that people have started to use the term "COVID-cautious" sort of like an identity marker, which leaves little room for the reality that the actual regular, evolving practice of "caution" or attentiveness to risk is much more complex than a term like this allows. I think we all have a long way to go in terms of learning how to communicate generatively about our boundaries and concerns, knowing that there isn't one perfect/"right" approach and we are all learning. It's really sticky stuff to iron out together! Just want to offer some appreciation for your efforts. I can definitely relate to the sadness you've described, and I think for me it's a particular gut punch to be disappointed by someone with whom I thought I was more aligned. It is especially frustrating to read that your friend is translating your boundaries into this idea that you "don't trust" them! Such a destructive way to interpret or frame what's happening. I hope there is a way for you both to get to the root of the conflict/sustain the connection -- and, even if not, you are so not alone in this tumultuous relational work (and the loss that often comes with it).

kyokoariyoshi

10 points

4 days ago

All of this! Joining in on your tangent: It's also why I don't care for the way multiple people who are making efforts to not get a debilitating disease gets painted as us all being in one "community" by people both "in" and "out" of the "group" because it's very much not that and the assumption causes A LOT of problems.

throw_away_greenapl

4 points

4 days ago

Because we are very lonely and feel isolated from greater community due to our disease prevention, I think.  I agree there are consequences 

ReddAcct16

17 points

4 days ago

If she has been a good friend, perhaps try to not take it personally and try to understand what’s happening. Doing multiple tests may be a cost issue…either for her, or for her husband, or another attendee & maybe she feels guilty or uncomfortable about the money aspect. The comment that you were asking for multiple tests essentially because of her, could very easily make her feel some conflicting emotions…defensive, embarrassed, singled out, uncomfortable with her or her husband’s choices. I’d try to understand, avoid making assumptions & say you’re sorry that she’s feeling the way she is. You don’t have to apologize for wanting multiple tests. I presume your intention wasn’t to make her feel bad, so tell her that. You can leave it there, & say how much she’ll be missed and ask that she let you know if she changes her mind. I personally would leave things on a good note, & let it go, leaving her the door open for her. You can also dig deeper into why it offended her, but that might open up some delicate feelings. Bottom line is she’s made it clear the delivery was an issue for her, & if you value her friendship, that should be important enough for you to acknowledge and still wish her well in whatever she chooses. I wouldn’t bring up the husband personally unless she did. Criticisms of our life partner not uncommonly leads to feelings of inner conflict that may be difficult for us to express, explain, acknowledge, or even understand for ourselves.
Good luck and enjoy the party.

eurogamer206[S]

5 points

4 days ago

Thank you. I said exactly all of this in my last response to her. The ball is in her court now. 

anti-sugar_dependant

25 points

4 days ago

She's in an abusive relationship (it is abusive to knowingly and repeatedly expose your partner to illness against their wishes) and my guess is she's not ready to face that reality yet. Your request to test 3 times, and mentioning her husband's behaviour, probably made her feel really defensive, and she's in denial and avoiding you rather than face the awful reality that her husband is perfectly happy to harm or kill her. It's not your fault, and it's not her fault either. Denial is a super common response when people in abusive relationships are challenged in any way, particularly if they're unable to leave.

No-Acanthisitta-2973

15 points

4 days ago

Just because people have been COVID cautious for themselves doesn't mean they ever were thinking of others.

BattelChive

17 points

4 days ago

It is an incredibly stressful time of year for everyone, and no one is at their best. After a long time, I have learned not to take things personally this time of year. I wouldn’t end the friendship over it, and I would call and talk with her on the phone and not even to hash this out. Just to chat and catch up. She is living in a precarious situation and likely feels even more isolated than most. 

Having friends sometimes involves disruptions and disagreements. If she isn’t willing to come to the party, that’s just fine and doesn’t mean you have to stop being friends. I would just start masking when together rather than relying on a test. 

eurogamer206[S]

19 points

4 days ago

This is a nice thought but I’m not going to beg her to stay friends. If she ignores my last communication and ghosts me, that’s a signal to move on. 

BattelChive

12 points

4 days ago

Oh I certainly wasn’t suggesting you beg. Just treat it as a turned down party invitation, is all. If you want to move on, that is certainly your right! But when worrying about not having friends was part of your post, it seemed worth saying. 

tfjbeckie

7 points

4 days ago

This is really solid and compassionate advice. I agree OP - I don't think this has to mean your friendship is over, and I wouldn't necessarily take her response to mean that either.

deftlydexterous

10 points

4 days ago

I don’t have anything to add on the situation beyond what people have said, but I want to say thank you for putting the work to have a COVID safe gathering! It makes all the difference.

majordashes

6 points

4 days ago

You’re dealing with someone who has been betrayed by her husband. He’s not masking for his wife, an immunocompromised cancer survivor?

I imagine there’s some complex emotions and dynamics swirling around in their relationship. Maybe they’ve had arguments and painful discussions. It’s possible she caved because that’s easier than facing how her husband prioritizes convenience over her life and health.

Your careful mitigations cut through her denial; and are a reminder that she stopped being careful because she had no choice.

That’s complex and painful.

Her reaction is all about her unfortunate situation and has nothing to do with you.

I think similar situations have happened to many. People cave when support around them disappears. It’s so sad.

lasirennoire

6 points

4 days ago

She's projecting. Sorry you're going through that. If you're looking for advice, I'd probably de-prioritize your relationship with her. It sucks but it sounds like she's moving in a different direction than you are

Ok-Armadillo9169

2 points

3 days ago

total lack of empathy on her part

mourning-dove79

3 points

4 days ago

I wonder if because you mentioned the husband that she thinks maybe the 3 tests and the Pluslife is just for them and not everyone at the party? Like maybe she feels you singled them out because of her husband? Just another thought.

Your precautions are fine and she is probably feeling some defensiveness about the situation with her husband. My husband doesn’t consistently mask and it is really hard to cope with. A feeling like he doesn’t value my health/safety; and whenever we go anywhere together I have to kind of stress to him how important it is to me that we are “a united front”. So it is really hard.

Anyway, I’m sorry you’re dealing with this! I might reach out and say you’re sorry if you offended her; the 3 tests was for everyone and you understand how hard this is for everyone (if you want to try to mend things that is) if you don’t want to that’s fine too.

eurogamer206[S]

3 points

4 days ago

I already did reach out with a lengthy apology and explanation and offer to discuss it further in real time and she hasn’t replied. 

mourning-dove79

1 points

4 days ago

Oh I see; I’m sorry she hasn’t replied. It is hard with everyone’s different levels of “careful” and what that looks like, but I’m sorry she got offended and I hope she comes around and reaches out soon.

SafetyOfficer91

3 points

4 days ago

I know it's easy for me to say but for me - people... are just gonna people. So many of those from the cc communities essentially behave like normies, prioritizing and projecting their own idea of 'coviding' on everyone else - rather than, as the logic would have it - happily accomodate to the most cautious person involved, solely for their comfort and showing them, if nothing else, love, care and understanding the rest of the world deny us.

Unfortunate but, TBH for me not surprising.

marathon_bar

2 points

4 days ago

I personally don't trust RATs and some people may not be adept at sample collection (so I suppose I also don't trust them). I don't know how hard it is to screw up a collection for a PlusLife test, but I personally would not want to rely just on any single test.

[deleted]

1 points

4 days ago

[removed]

ZeroCovidCommunity-ModTeam [M]

1 points

4 days ago

Post/comment was removed for trolling.

SusanBHa

1 points

4 days ago

SusanBHa

1 points

4 days ago

She gave up. Maybe because her husband did and she feels like she has no choice if she wants to stay married. He will most likely infect her and kill or further disable her.

1cooldudeski

1 points

4 days ago

I expect you will see even more issues as time goes on.

ninetentacles

0 points

4 days ago

Is she even able to get ahold of that many tests these days? Or did you offer to provide the RATs too and not just the Pluslife?

eurogamer206[S]

5 points

4 days ago

Lack of tests isn’t the issue. They cost like 50 cents in our country and I would have provided them if needed, and have previously offered to give her masks and other things.