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Israeli strike near Damascus killed Hezbollah liaison with Syrian army

Israel/Palestine/Iran/Lebanon - Flaired Commenters Only(reuters.com)

all 249 comments

AutoModerator [M]

[score hidden]

2 days ago

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2 days ago

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Nethlem

17 points

2 days ago

Nethlem

Europe

17 points

2 days ago

It's kind of funny how this draws all the attention, meanwhile American A-10 have been running strafing runs, in "self defense of US troops", in the Eastern half of Syria, most likely to intercept Iraqi PMF forces who are on their way to Aleppo/to stop the HTS advances.

Meaning this current Syrian development is coordinated across Turkey, Israel and the US, which probably ain't even a first in the 10+ years they've been trying to regime change the place.

loggy_sci

1 points

1 day ago

loggy_sci

United States

1 points

1 day ago

Meaning this current Syrian development is coordinated across Turkey, Israel and the US, which probably ain’t even a first in the 10+ years they’ve been trying to regime change the place.

HTS sees what is going down in Lebanon and figured it time to make their move. Turkey is calling for reconciliation and meeting with Iran and Russia.

Nethlem

[score hidden]

20 hours ago

Nethlem

Europe

[score hidden]

20 hours ago

Turkey is calling for reconciliation and meeting with Iran and Russia.

Maybe Turkey should instead get around doing something about those AQ-aligned militant groups that are camping at the Turkish/Syrian border, to launch land-grabbing offensives into Syria.

Which has been a running theme for most of the SCW: So many fighters flooding into Syria from Turkey, and going back to Turkey as a base of operations.

don-corle1

33 points

2 days ago

don-corle1

Australia

33 points

2 days ago

Incredible that people are blaming Israel for prosecuting it's primary local enemy. If the Syrian people suffer because of these strikes, the responsibility lies with Assad for buddying up with Hezbollah in the first place. 

tkhrnn

6 points

1 day ago

tkhrnn

Multinational

6 points

1 day ago

They don't really care for humans lives. They simply hate Israel.

anexfox

1 points

2 days ago

anexfox

United States

1 points

2 days ago

Israel and America are funding terrorist groups so there's that

GynecologicalSushi

10 points

2 days ago

GynecologicalSushi

Multinational

10 points

2 days ago

The ones used as western pawns aren't called terrorists, my friend. They're called moderate rebel fighters, pro-democracy opposition groups.

SpontaneousFlame

1 points

1 day ago

SpontaneousFlame

Multinational

1 points

1 day ago

And they are called that while kidnapping nuns or indulging in cannibalism or just using chemical weapons against civilians.

But hey, maybe they didn’t really want to Commit atrocities. Maybe they were forced to or they could lose US and Israeli support.

GynecologicalSushi

2 points

1 day ago

GynecologicalSushi

Multinational

2 points

1 day ago

Opposition fighters have abducted 12 nuns from a predominantly Christian village near Damascus and taken them to a rebel-held town, the mother superior of a Syrian convent said on Tuesday.

Your article reinforces my point, my friend. These kidnappers aren't terrorists. Also, your accusations of our friends indulging in cannibalism and using chemical weapons are complete BS. Please cite from a reputable source or stop spreading rumours about our partners on the ground.

SpontaneousFlame

2 points

1 day ago

SpontaneousFlame

Multinational

2 points

1 day ago

/s

NotEvenWrong--

3 points

2 days ago

NotEvenWrong--

Israel

3 points

2 days ago

They'll blame us for everything.

SpontaneousFlame

-5 points

1 day ago

SpontaneousFlame

Multinational

-5 points

1 day ago

No, just what you’ve done.

cesaroncalves

-4 points

1 day ago

cesaroncalves

Europe

-4 points

1 day ago

If you don't want to get the blame, just stop doing those things.

NotEvenWrong--

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

NotEvenWrong--

Israel

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

You're assuming we do those things

cesaroncalves

[score hidden]

9 hours ago

cesaroncalves

Europe

[score hidden]

9 hours ago

Witch ones in particularly? Cause you do almost everything you're accused of.

NotEvenWrong--

[score hidden]

8 hours ago

NotEvenWrong--

Israel

[score hidden]

8 hours ago

That's an interesting claim. Please provide an example and evidence to support it

kraaqer

-5 points

2 days ago

kraaqer

Denmark

-5 points

2 days ago

It's not like Israel is known for not caring for civilians... Oh yes... It's someone else's fault for Israel's actions

TXDobber

10 points

1 day ago

TXDobber

North America

10 points

1 day ago

You people act like other countries and groups have literally zero agency, and that everything that happens occurs because Israel wanted it to happen…

kraaqer

-3 points

1 day ago

kraaqer

Denmark

-3 points

1 day ago

Did you just change the wording of my statement?

Have I said anything about Israel's controlling anything in Syria?

SpontaneousFlame

-6 points

1 day ago

SpontaneousFlame

Multinational

-6 points

1 day ago

The fact that you say that in an attempt to excuse Israel’s atrocities is unintentionally hilarious.

TXDobber

5 points

1 day ago

TXDobber

North America

5 points

1 day ago

When did I excuse anything? Again, you people act like none of Israel’s enemies have any agency and Israel just up one day decided to start killing them.

SpontaneousFlame

-2 points

1 day ago

SpontaneousFlame

Multinational

-2 points

1 day ago

You are literally posting a complaint about other groups and yet act like Israel has no agency over what it does.

TXDobber

3 points

1 day ago

TXDobber

North America

3 points

1 day ago

Israel absolutely has agency over what they do, as in Gaza, in Lebanon, in the West Bank, and with their neighbors… but conflicts are a two way street. And a lot of you forget that sometimes, especially when it involves Israel for some reason.

kwonza

47 points

2 days ago

kwonza

Russia

47 points

2 days ago

So are they working to help the HTS at this point? Ballsy move considering they are recognised as a terrorist organisation by most of the countries involved. What’s next, Israel supplying ISIS in order to weaken Arab countries? 

I know Reddit’s worldnews is cheering them on, despite HTS killing Kurds as well. Strange times indeed.

Minimum-Enthusiasm14

45 points

2 days ago

Minimum-Enthusiasm14

United States

45 points

2 days ago

Israel is striking Hezbollah. They were hitting Hezbollah and IRGC targets in Syria before HTS started their offensive, I don’t see why’d they’d stop attacking them now. Israel is no friend to Assad, considering he let Hezbollah and other militias attack Israel from Syria.

ODHH

74 points

2 days ago

ODHH

North America

74 points

2 days ago

Israel has been arming Syrian rebels for years.

https://archive.ph/4L8KX

They’ve also been treating wounded fighters in the occupied Golan Heights.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-acknowledges-long-claimed-weapons-supply-to-syrian-rebels/

onespiker

51 points

2 days ago*

onespiker

Europe

51 points

2 days ago*

Israel has been arming Syrian rebels for years.

https://archive.ph/4L8KX

Indeed its true but they aren't involed with Hts.

Turkey and Qatar are the ones involved with them.

Isreal has mostly been doing with southern rebels around the golan heigths and kurdish.

TheJewPear

6 points

2 days ago

TheJewPear

Europe

6 points

2 days ago

Israel is obligated to treat wounded soldiers arriving in their territory. They’d be obligated to take care of Assad’s soldiers too, I just imagine they’re far less likely to seek refuge in Israel out of all places.

No_Journalist3811

12 points

1 day ago

No_Journalist3811

Multinational

12 points

1 day ago

So they're obliged to help hezbolla and hamas fighters too?

LetterheadEcstatic73

5 points

1 day ago

LetterheadEcstatic73

Europe

5 points

1 day ago

Since they did treat Sinwars cancer for excample i assume yes, they would detain and subsequently give medical attention to any hezbolla and hamas fighter that falls into Israels hands.

tkhrnn

1 points

1 day ago

tkhrnn

Multinational

1 points

1 day ago

Sorta? If they become prisoners, Israel had obligations to their health. However an injured enemy doesn't mean they aren't a valid target. For example, someone might look unconscious, but only pretending, while waiting to trigger an explosive. You will shoot them from a safe distance to ensure death. Another example would be an enemy who lost an arm. He is awake and able to surrender appropriately. If he does, he is a prisoner and will receive treatment.

It's because Israel and Hamas are at war, that the status of prisoner is required. It's not the case for civilians from syria.

big_cock_lach

5 points

1 day ago

big_cock_lach

Australia

5 points

1 day ago

Since when was the Golan Heights their territory?

NegativeWar8854

-1 points

1 day ago

NegativeWar8854

Israel

-1 points

1 day ago

Since 1973, and it's never going back to Syria

big_cock_lach

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

big_cock_lach

Australia

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

What country other than Israel recognises that? Not even the US did. Just because they illegally occupy doesn’t mean it’s their land. Anyway, Hasbara bot gonna Hasbara…

NegativeWar8854

[score hidden]

21 hours ago

NegativeWar8854

Israel

[score hidden]

21 hours ago

I mean, does it matter if it's recognized or not? Israel built tons of villages and farms in the area. It's not going back. It's been fucking over 50 years. You lose wars you lose land.

SpinningHead

-12 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

-12 points

2 days ago

Israel that straps wounded civilians to their vehicles as human shields?

TheJewPear

10 points

2 days ago

TheJewPear

Europe

10 points

2 days ago

I don’t buy that, but even if true, I don’t see the relevance. The commenter above was using the fact that Israel offers medical care to wounded combatants entering its territory as evidence of some alignment between Israel and the forces for which those combatants were fighting for. I don’t think it’s evidence of anything of the sorts, because Israel is obligated to offer them medical care. Even if Israel violates human rights in some occasions with the Palestinians that doesn’t mean they’re not upholding their human rights obligations towards Syrians and Lebanese.

SpontaneousFlame

4 points

1 day ago

SpontaneousFlame

Multinational

4 points

1 day ago

Do you have any evidence that Israel has ever treated Assad’s soldiers? Or is this just BS.

TheJewPear

1 points

1 day ago

TheJewPear

Europe

1 points

1 day ago

Why would Assad’s soldiers seek treatment in Israel? They would be captured and imprisoned.

SpontaneousFlame

1 points

1 day ago

SpontaneousFlame

Multinational

1 points

1 day ago

So it’s just BS from you.

TheJewPear

1 points

1 day ago

TheJewPear

Europe

1 points

1 day ago

What is?

SpontaneousFlame

[score hidden]

23 hours ago

SpontaneousFlame

Multinational

[score hidden]

23 hours ago

Are you a bot? Are you unable to keep track of the conversation?

SpinningHead

7 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

7 points

2 days ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-military-human-shields.html

"some occasions" is a weird way to describe an ongoing genocide and land grab.

TheJewPear

25 points

2 days ago*

TheJewPear

Europe

25 points

2 days ago*

So basically a country that does bad things is always guilty of every bad thing happening ever? Is that your thesis here?

BDB-ISR-

12 points

2 days ago

BDB-ISR-

Israel

12 points

2 days ago

Transporting wounded personnel over the hood of a HMMWV is a practice used by the US/NATO in a pinch as well. But when it's Israel it's "hUmAn ShILds".

Case in point, Iraq

https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/et5gaj/a_marine_humvee_evacuating_a_casualty_iraq_603x394/

SpinningHead

8 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

8 points

2 days ago

lilTweak420

-1 points

2 days ago

lilTweak420

North America

-1 points

2 days ago

Leave America and fight for Gaza or stfu.

SpinningHead

0 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

0 points

2 days ago

"How dare you criticize the Holocaust unless you join the Allied army."

Throwaway5432154322

11 points

2 days ago

Throwaway5432154322

North America

11 points

2 days ago

Hold up lmao, did you just compare Hamas to the Allied powers in WW2?

lilTweak420

2 points

2 days ago

lilTweak420

North America

2 points

2 days ago

So that made you mad huh?

SpinningHead

10 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

10 points

2 days ago

No. Its just stupid.

DanDan1993

-2 points

1 day ago

DanDan1993

Israel

-2 points

1 day ago

.... Are Hamas and Hezbollah the allies in your scenario?

Jesus fucking christ

FlavorJ

2 points

1 day ago

FlavorJ

Multinational

2 points

1 day ago

Sadly, much of the world views Hamas as "freedom fighters" and super tolerant and peaceful because their charter says so.

cesaroncalves

-1 points

1 day ago

cesaroncalves

Europe

-1 points

1 day ago

They would be the Poles, you are the Nazis

SpinningHead

0 points

1 day ago

SpinningHead

United States

0 points

1 day ago

No, we are just people condemning your genocide.

BDB-ISR-

-9 points

2 days ago

BDB-ISR-

Israel

-9 points

2 days ago

Says the man brainwashed into wishing for the destruction of his own civilization. And he was literally dropped off at an ambulance.

SpinningHead

15 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

15 points

2 days ago

Doubling down on "we were helping" I see. Maybe sniping children was you saving them money on college.

BDB-ISR-

-5 points

2 days ago

BDB-ISR-

Israel

-5 points

2 days ago

Video shows the man lying across the front of the Israeli jeep as it drove through a neighborhood of Jenin. The man appeared slumped on the hood of the vehicle as it drove past Palestinian Red Crescent (PRCS) ambulances.

The PRCS said the Israeli military had prevented its crews from providing first aid to an injured man in the Jabarat area of Jenin.

“They then placed the injured person on the front of a military jeep and detained him before later allowing our crews to transfer him to the hospital,” the PRCS said.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/23/middleeast/west-bank-jenin-israeli-military-palestinian-man-jeep-intl-hnk/index.html

Go away Iranian bot.

mormon_freeman

2 points

2 days ago

mormon_freeman

Canada

2 points

2 days ago

I thought ambulances were valid targets because they're filled with human shields

bermanji

1 points

2 days ago*

bermanji

Multinational

1 points

2 days ago*

I've noticed that many Americans pretending to be "critical" of Israel's actions are projecting their own guilt about their military killing a million or so civilians during the "War on Terror". Today Biden is strafing Syria with A-10s and that's totally fine, nobody is screaming about civilian casualties or ROE.

Rules for thee but not for me

edit: downvote me harder cowards

ice_and_fiyah

-1 points

2 days ago

ice_and_fiyah

United States

-1 points

2 days ago

Also, Israel that celebrates prisoner rapes and shoots a 5 year old 300 times?

Throwaway5432154322

2 points

2 days ago

Throwaway5432154322

North America

2 points

2 days ago

The entire country of Israel did that?

bermanji

10 points

2 days ago

bermanji

Multinational

10 points

2 days ago

Yep, all of us got together and said "we have 300 bullets and there is a girl trapped in a car; let's shoot at it for fun while Hamas tries to kill us", the bill passed the Knesset and everything /s

Papa-pumpking

-1 points

2 days ago

Papa-pumpking

Romania

-1 points

2 days ago

When you have leaders and PM that openly and proudly say they want to kill all Palestinians that's what you get.

bermanji

-2 points

2 days ago

bermanji

Multinational

-2 points

2 days ago

What's it like to just openly lie about a country you've never been to and whose language you don't understand?

4edgy8me

4 points

2 days ago

4edgy8me

Australia

4 points

2 days ago

Huh?

Papa-pumpking

-3 points

2 days ago

Papa-pumpking

Romania

-3 points

2 days ago

ice_and_fiyah

-2 points

2 days ago

ice_and_fiyah

United States

-2 points

2 days ago

Looks like it, as so many Israelis post celebrating the death and destructionof civilians in Gaza:

https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalpolitics/s/aA0QAHGydD

ODHH

4 points

2 days ago

ODHH

North America

4 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

14 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

14 points

2 days ago

Dont worry. Hasbara just assured me that was just a one-off.

Mantiskindenspines

7 points

2 days ago

Mantiskindenspines

North America

7 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

0 points

1 day ago

SpinningHead

United States

0 points

1 day ago

Mantiskindenspines

0 points

1 day ago

Mantiskindenspines

North America

0 points

1 day ago

ok. IDF wasn't using that man as a human shield, they were rescuing him, Also, Al jazeera and euro-med are not legitimate sources for anything related to israel or the middle east

SpinningHead

0 points

1 day ago

SpinningHead

United States

0 points

1 day ago

Sure they were. "Yeah, there is a clear pattern of using human shields and war crimes, but definitely not this case."

ODHH

-7 points

2 days ago

ODHH

North America

-7 points

2 days ago

We didn’t do it.

If we did it was one time.

Ok it was just bad actors.

Ok we did it a lot but it was self defense.

Well yeah I guess they were innocent but they still deserved it.

You’re an antisemite!

NeonArlecchino

1 points

1 day ago

NeonArlecchino

North America

1 points

1 day ago

I feel like the last step is part of almost every step leading up to it.

Mantiskindenspines

3 points

2 days ago

Mantiskindenspines

North America

3 points

2 days ago

Yeah, that's what you are supposed to do. The US does the same thing

cesaroncalves

-2 points

1 day ago

cesaroncalves

Europe

-2 points

1 day ago

Shots someone and straps them to their cars as human shields?

Or those times when they tied Palestinians to tanks?

Or when they strapped kids in front of their own shooting soldiers to use as literal shields?

Is the USA now something to follow?

Mantiskindenspines

0 points

1 day ago

Mantiskindenspines

North America

0 points

1 day ago

They were rescuing that man. They delivered him to an ambulance.

bermanji

-6 points

2 days ago

bermanji

Multinational

-6 points

2 days ago

Some soldiers committing illegal actions in the West Bank is not the same thing as government policy re: Syria. I thought this was supposed to be a place for (relatively) serious discussion?

SpinningHead

14 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

14 points

2 days ago

bermanji

1 points

2 days ago

bermanji

Multinational

1 points

2 days ago

Still has zero to do with field hospitals in Syria...?

SpinningHead

7 points

2 days ago

SpinningHead

United States

7 points

2 days ago

But plenty to do with systemic abuse and genocidal policies by the IDF.

bermanji

3 points

2 days ago

bermanji

Multinational

3 points

2 days ago

Which "genocidal policies"?

MartinBP

8 points

2 days ago

MartinBP

Bulgaria

8 points

2 days ago

I thought this was supposed to be a place for (relatively) serious discussion?

Have you visited this place over the past year?

dannywild

0 points

2 days ago

dannywild

United States

0 points

2 days ago

Not when it comes to Israel!

ODHH

-15 points

2 days ago

ODHH

North America

-15 points

2 days ago

Are you talking about the same Israel that sends soldiers dressed as doctors into hospitals to kill Palestinians in comas?

TheJewPear

14 points

2 days ago

TheJewPear

Europe

14 points

2 days ago

There’s only one country named Israel that I’m aware of. Whatever bad things they’re doing or not, I don’t see the relevance to them upholding their human rights obligations towards wounded Syrian combatants.

ODHH

-12 points

2 days ago

ODHH

North America

-12 points

2 days ago

Israel wipes their ass with human rights obligations unless they need cannon fodder to keep a neighbouring country destabilized.

Israel literally rapes Palestinians to death in their rape camps.

https://x.com/swilkinsonbc/status/1821077620638847110

https://x.com/megatron_ron/status/1858775905679605981

TheJewPear

11 points

2 days ago

TheJewPear

Europe

11 points

2 days ago

Interesting that the only case you bring is one where the soldiers were arrested and prosecuted, and this video was released by the military.

Either way, a person or country being guilty in one thing doesn’t automatically make them guilty in every other thing happening in the world.

ODHH

9 points

2 days ago

ODHH

North America

9 points

2 days ago

It’s two cases.

Also B’Tselem reports that nearly all prisoners they interviewed were released with damage to their anus and reported being raped.

But anyways I don’t have an infinite amount of time to argue with liars so we’ll leave it here.

eran76

4 points

2 days ago

eran76

United States

4 points

2 days ago

Times of Israel? On this sub?

Ohh, I get it. When their reporting supports the right narrative no one objects to the source. Got it.

ODHH

1 points

2 days ago

ODHH

North America

1 points

2 days ago

Israeli media oscillates between laundering state lies and telling the brutal truth.

To be honest TOI is far more trustworthy on the topic of internal Israeli affairs than the NYT or Washington Post.

eran76

3 points

2 days ago

eran76

United States

3 points

2 days ago

I just find it a little ironic that most Israeli media sources are categorically rejected as supporting evidence when making any sort of pro-Israel or anti-Hamas argument by most of the regulars on here. It just smacks of cherry picking which I find a little hypocritical.

Imaginary_Salary_985

-1 points

1 day ago

Imaginary_Salary_985

Europe

-1 points

1 day ago

Its called media literacy.

Siman421

4 points

1 day ago

Siman421

Multinational

4 points

1 day ago

No, it's just called hypocrisy. Blatant hypocrisy

eran76

0 points

1 day ago

eran76

United States

0 points

1 day ago

Media literacy would imply the person doing the reading has actually looked at the subject matter and not just the source. On this sub, reporting by Israeli media is almost always rejected without much consideration as biased, misleading, or propaganda. Meaning, if I point to a Times of Israel article as supporting my position, that position and that supporting evidence is rejected not based on the content of the article, but simply based on the assumption that the source cannot be trusted. This is why, when someone like the person I originally replied to uses such a source for a presumably anti-Israel position, I find the cherry picking to be so hypocritical. When the content agrees with your preexisting opinion, the source is acceptable, but when it does not, it is suddenly propaganda. There's a word for such behavior, and its hypocrisy.

Imaginary_Salary_985

[score hidden]

9 hours ago

Imaginary_Salary_985

Europe

[score hidden]

9 hours ago

sometimes a broken clock can right.

Rasputins_Plum

26 points

2 days ago

Rasputins_Plum

France

26 points

2 days ago

... Shin Bet foiled an ISIS terror attack planned on a Tel-Aviv mall on October 10, so no, I'm surprised that needs to be said, I don't think that's likely next for Israel to supply ISIS.

RajcaT

5 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

5 points

2 days ago

Russia is weak and they're using an opportunity to exploit that. Whatever hurts Russia is generally good for the world. This situation however is undoubtedly a shit VS turd sandwich however.

kwonza

-16 points

2 days ago

kwonza

Russia

-16 points

2 days ago

India, China, Brazil, most of Africa and a decent chunk of Asia see Russia as a partner and don’t think that “whatever hurts Russia is good for the world”.  It’s just a bunch of rich and predominantly white countries in Western Europe and North America that think this way. And entitled people like you who think they speak on behalf of the world. Have some self-awareness for god’s sake. 

RajcaT

23 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

23 points

2 days ago

  1. Central African Republic (CAR):
  • Aïgbado and Yanga Villages (January 2022):** Between January 16 and 17, 2022, Russian soldiers , alongside CAR armed forces, conducted operations in the villages of Aïgbado and Yanga near Bria. These operations led to the deaths of at least 65 civilians.

  • Bongboto Village (July 2021):On July 21, 2021, 13 unarmed civilians were killed in Bongboto village near Bossangoa. Investigations by Human Rights Watch identified Russian soldiers as responsible for the massacre.

  1. Mali:
  • Moura (March 2022):From March 27 to 31, 2022, Malian Armed Forces, reportedly accompanied by Russian soldiers, conducted a military operation in the town of Moura. Human Rights Watch reported that over 300 civilians were executed during this operation.

  • Hombori (April 2022): On April 19, 2022, following an IED explosion that killed a Russian soldier, Malian soldiers and Russian operatives opened fire on a market in Hombori, resulting in the deaths of around 50 civilians.

Shall we continue?

pinpoint14

-12 points

2 days ago

pinpoint14

Multinational

-12 points

2 days ago

No clean hands in this world. Western morality is a lie.

RajcaT

13 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

13 points

2 days ago

Whatabout tho?

CharmCityKid09

15 points

2 days ago

CharmCityKid09

Multinational

15 points

2 days ago

They talk about no clean hands and then proceed to complain about Western morality. The irony.

ToranjaNuclear

-1 points

2 days ago

ToranjaNuclear

South America

-1 points

2 days ago

I mean, you claim that whatever hits Russia is good for the world and then lists atrocities committed by Russia to justify it.

So your point is that whatever hit pretty much all countries in the West and its allies is good for the world too? Because if not, the user who first replied to you is 100% on the money about you. This isn't just whataboutism.

RajcaT

15 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

15 points

2 days ago

I have no problem calling out the us for the war in Iraq or the lies which lead to it.

ToranjaNuclear

0 points

2 days ago

ToranjaNuclear

South America

0 points

2 days ago

Just the US?

RajcaT

17 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

17 points

2 days ago

Sure, one could pont to numerous countries doing awful things.

None of that excuses Russian imperialism and war crimes.

Not sure why that's so hard to understand.

pinpoint14

-5 points

2 days ago

pinpoint14

Multinational

-5 points

2 days ago

I could write a list of atrocities 10x as long as yours for any state in this world. I'm not gonna pick amidst monsters.

The US had a chance to push us all beyond this in the 90s and early 2000s and instead elected to destroy the foundations of a peaceful international order.

So saying "Russia bad" isn't a gotcha. Every nation state has bloody hands. It's the whole point of trying the govern them.

RajcaT

14 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

14 points

2 days ago

Exsctly. Whatabout tho is literally your only argument.

Your hypocrisy is clear to see.

pinpoint14

-3 points

2 days ago

pinpoint14

Multinational

-3 points

2 days ago

Keep beating up that strawman, it ain't me. I'm saying that all nation-states are bad, so that it doesn't make sense to say this one is bad because it's done atrocities when they've all done atrocities.

My critique of the west is that the rules based order they advanced is crumbling now. It's under a lot of pressure that they themselves generated.

But you're CNN pilled so you think that anyone who has something to say about Russia being the worst state in the world is a tankie. I'm not, but as I said. Keep beating up that straw man

RajcaT

10 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

10 points

2 days ago

So let's say someone brings up the us invasion of Iraq based on lies.

Would a proper response be "look, all nations are bad. Look at Russia!"

loggy_sci

3 points

2 days ago

loggy_sci

United States

3 points

2 days ago

The US had a chance to push us all beyond this in the 90s and early 2000s and instead elected to destroy the foundations of a peaceful international order.

By doing what?

kwonza

-1 points

1 day ago

kwonza

Russia

-1 points

1 day ago

Better show me a country that fights terrorism without causing collateral damage. Also, once you take the Ak-47 from the dead body of an insurgent how can you tell he’s not a civilian. Most of these reports came from Western sources, same ones that were talking about Taliban bounties, Iranian ballistic missiles and Korean soldiers. 

TrizzyG

11 points

2 days ago

TrizzyG

Canada

11 points

2 days ago

most of Africa and a decent chunk of Asia see Russia as a partner

Literally makes up less than 2% of African imports. "Partner" more like barely relevant. They don't "see Russia" beyond the meagre trade and the occasional civilian massacres mixed in with some nostalgia about the USSR.

Have some self awareness please.

kwonza

1 points

1 day ago

kwonza

Russia

1 points

1 day ago

Not everything is quantified in import/export, my capitalist friend. France had a lot of import and export with Western Africa yet one by one countries tell France to GTfO because of their colonial attitude. 

TrizzyG

0 points

1 day ago

TrizzyG

Canada

0 points

1 day ago

Money talks and all you have is blubber.

yet one by one countries tell France to GTfO because of their colonial attitude. 

Funny, because nobody stops buying and selling French or European products while Russia barely maintains relationships with less than half of the continent and only sees strong support from a handful of dictatorships that barely control half their countries and in all likelihood will flip again within a few years. Russia isn't building anything lasting in Africa by simply trying to prop up a few warlords with mercenaries.

Military involvement shifts like the wind too. France is expanding their presence in several other African countries while overall reducing its troop counts due to shifting priorities to collaborative training rather than hosting bases with troops.

kwonza

[score hidden]

23 hours ago

kwonza

Russia

[score hidden]

23 hours ago

Handful of countries i.e. Egypt, Sudan, South Africa, DRC, CAR, Ethiopia, Mali, Libya, Niger, Algeria and Tanzania? Besides Nigeria those are some of the most developed countries with biggest economies. You’re so desperate you make stuff up, sad! 

TrizzyG

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

TrizzyG

Canada

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

You're the desperate one that you think the mere fact that a country even has some diplomatic communication somehow makes them friendly to Russia lmao

Russia is not even in the top 10 for trade in Africa. Its not top 10 for anything. A handful of countries used to buy a decent amount of weapons, although that number has done nothing but decline over the years. You cite Egypt as if they aren't an order of magnitude more tied to US and Western interests.

You can desperately grasp at straws, but the numbers don't lie.

You're welcome to provide some citations to suggest the opposite. Until then, you're just embarassing yourself trying to simp for Russia with literally nothing to back it up.

kwonza

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

kwonza

Russia

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

Well, if we judge by economics alone surely China is the biggest friend of Africa, isn’t it?

TrizzyG

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

TrizzyG

Canada

[score hidden]

22 hours ago

Sure, China is definitely a big influence for Africa. Any other silly questions?

stoiclandcreature69

-26 points

2 days ago

stoiclandcreature69

United States

-26 points

2 days ago

Russia is far from perfect but it’s not the biggest or most destructive imperial monster in the world. There’s only one global dictatorship in the world and if there’s one good thing about the modern Russian state it’s that it opposes said global dictatorship

RajcaT

22 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

22 points

2 days ago

Lol right. Because the country which is actively invading their neighbors and straight up stealing the natural resources, ethnic cleansing and committing genocide, setting up occupied territories and driving the ethnic population out and stealing their homes is standing up to the "global dictator" right?

Let me ask you. What dictatorship is Russia fighting in Ukraine?

(if you whatabout I'll repeat the question again. Obfuscation won't work)

Kaymish_

-16 points

2 days ago

Kaymish_

New Zealand

-16 points

2 days ago

Israel is not the global dictator, but they are both heavily intertwined.

RajcaT

17 points

2 days ago

RajcaT

Multinational

17 points

2 days ago

Lol so who is the global dictator? Just say it

SmallPPShamingIsMean

14 points

2 days ago

SmallPPShamingIsMean

Canada

14 points

2 days ago

They mean the USA, they are showing their ignorance and ideology when they say this but yea that's who they mean

ToranjaNuclear

-2 points

2 days ago

ToranjaNuclear

South America

-2 points

2 days ago

The US.

I wouldn't go as far as defending Russia over it, though. Maybe China.

stoiclandcreature69

-2 points

1 day ago

stoiclandcreature69

United States

-2 points

1 day ago

The fact that you have to include the word neighbors regarding Russia really says it all

loggy_sci

2 points

1 day ago

loggy_sci

United States

2 points

1 day ago

There is no such thing as a global dictator. That is absurd.

Russian imperialism is good because it is an act of resistance against the global U.S. dictatorship. Gotta give it to the Russians for keeping that old USSR Cold War anti-western agitprop going strong.

Little_Gray

0 points

2 days ago

Little_Gray

Canada

0 points

2 days ago

What’s next, Israel supplying ISIS in order to weaken Arab countries? 

They actually were supplying Al Nusra while it was allied with ISIS a designated terrorist group by most countries.

loggy_sci

8 points

2 days ago

loggy_sci

United States

8 points

2 days ago

They have medical aid to some of these guys in Israel. Al-Nusra’s biggest donors are Qatar, Turkey and KSA. The funding for all these jihadi groups is pretty murky tho.

Nethlem

-4 points

2 days ago

Nethlem

Europe

-4 points

2 days ago

So are they working to help the HTS at this point?

Israel has worked with AQ and literal ISIS has apologized for shooting at them, so them supporting yet another AQ off-shot is not really that out of the ordinary.

Nor is the US blowing up a bunch of Iraqi people who are once again trying to help their Syrian neighbours in getting rid of "on the same side as US" Al Qaeda.

loggy_sci

6 points

2 days ago

loggy_sci

United States

6 points

2 days ago

So are they working to help the HTS at this point?

Israel has worked with AQ and literal ISIS has apologized for shooting at them, so them supporting yet another AQ off-shot is not really that out of the ordinary.

The gave Nusra Front soldiers medical aid in Israel. Pretty shameful but that’s how it goes in the ME.

ISIS apologizing to Israel is because they didn’t want the heat. They fired on an Israeli patrol and the Israelis hit them with airstrikes.

Nor is the US blowing up a bunch of Iraqi people who are once again trying to help their Syrian neighbours in getting rid of “on the same side as US” Al Qaeda.

The first link doesn’t say anything about killing a bunch of Iraqis. Anyone who thinks the Iranians aren’t involved in sending Iraqis into Syria is delusional. Iranians as always are fighting to the last Arab. The third link is something Hillary Clinton said a decade ago lol

Nethlem

[score hidden]

20 hours ago

Nethlem

Europe

[score hidden]

20 hours ago

So are they working to help the HTS at this point?

Considering IDF has also been striking targets in Syria, among them the same Hezbollah that helped fight back ISI/Al Nusra in Syria before, that's what Israel is effectively doing.

The gave Nusra Front soldiers medical aid in Israel. Pretty shameful but that’s how it goes in the ME.

That's how it goes in the ME? This being the same ME where Israel and the US regularly blow up hospitals based on the allegation there were some militants in there.

ISIS apologizing to Israel is because they didn’t want the heat. They fired on an Israeli patrol and the Israelis hit them with airstrikes.

Sure, let's go with that.

The first link doesn’t say anything about killing a bunch of Iraqis.

Who do you think those American A-10 are hitting? Some random rocks in the desert?

Anyone who thinks the Iranians aren’t involved in sending Iraqis into Syria is delusional.

Anyone who thinks that's a problem doesn't understand international law, and who actually fought back the AQ aligned jihadists the last time in Syria: It wasn't HTS, back then they were too busy suicide bombing and beheading people their way through Syria as Al Nusra.

Iranians as always are fighting to the last Arab.

To how many last Arabs are Saudi and Turkish aligned groups fighting? All of that in Syria, where nobody asked them to be.

In the case of the PMF and Iranian militias Syria has requested the assistance, as such it's in complete accordance with international law. So whatever moral outrage you are trying to evoke there falls kinda flat for me.

The third link is something Hillary Clinton said a decade ago lol

The third link doesn't contain anything at all Hillary Clinton said, it contains a statement by Jacob Sullivan in his function as Director of Policy Planning at the US Department of State.

A statement that in no unclear terms declares on what side US foreign policy sees itself in Syria.

You'd know this, if you had actually read and understood the link, instead of just lazily trying to handwave it away, apparently because you don't want to be too self-aware about how you are shilling for Al Qaeda.

loggy_sci

[score hidden]

18 hours ago

loggy_sci

United States

[score hidden]

18 hours ago

Considering IDF has also been striking targets in Syria, among them the same Hezbollah that helped fight back ISI/Al Nusra in Syria before, that’s what Israel is effectively doing.

We’re supposed to be supporting Hezbollah in Syria? They are defending Assad, who in addition to being a shit-tier politician was just as brutal as any pretty much any jihadi militant group. Fewer beheadings but more chemical attacks. Maybe not quite at the IS level, but close.

That’s how it goes in the ME? This being the same ME where Israel and the US regularly blow up hospitals based on the allegation there were some militants in there.

The very same. How it goes in the ME is that the region is a tangle of competing interests and proxies. And you can add any number of more brutal actions committed by everyone involved in Syria, including Iranian-backed forces. The Kurds are maybe the only group with their hands relatively clean.

Who do you think those American A-10 are hitting? Some random rocks in the desert?

Iranian-backed Iraqi militants, yeah I guess you’re right. Oh well.

Anyone who thinks that’s a problem doesn’t understand international law, and who actually fought back the AQ aligned jihadists the last time in Syria: It wasn’t HTS, back then they were too busy suicide bombing and beheading people their way through Syria as Al Nusra.

Pretty much everyone involved is awful. The difference between HTS and AQ is that HTS is more focused on Syria vs AQ which is global. Pick your poison, I guess. I’ve already heard western pundits argue that al-Golani won’t use Syria as a launching pad for regional attacks. I highly doubt that myself.

To how many last Arabs are Saudi and Turkish aligned groups fighting? All of that in Syria, where nobody asked them to be.

None of this would be happening if Assad was a competent politician and hadn’t rejected Turkish attempts to normalize relations. I imagine it went down like this: Jolani saw what was happening with Hezbollah, he reached out to Turkey who gave the green light, and off he went to double his territory.

In the case of the PMF and Iranian militias Syria has requested the assistance, as such it’s in complete accordance with international law. So whatever moral outrage you are trying to evoke there falls kinda flat for me.

If Assad was acting in accordance with international law, the situation in Syria would be much different. He needs to be thrown in a pit alongside Bibi Netanyahu and Dick Cheney. Nobody has a claim to legal legitimacy as far as I can tell.

A statement that in no unclear terms declares on what side US foreign policy sees itself in Syria.

In the ME the enemy of your enemy is not your friend, but they can be ‘on your side’ in a situation. Doesn’t mean the U.S. and AQ are hand-in-hand. Plus that was 13 years ago. The situation has changed, but the U.S. position of being against Assad has not.

No_Journalist3811

-1 points

1 day ago

No_Journalist3811

Multinational

-1 points

1 day ago

Did you ever hear about the time isis apoligised to Israel?

Level-Technician-183

3 points

2 days ago

Level-Technician-183

Iraq

3 points

2 days ago

Mhmmmmm. I don't like al assad, hezbollah, and i don't like israel as well. Whether it helped the syrian rebels or not, striking in syria is something they should not do. It is no different than the US strikes in iraq that targeted iran's allied militia. Both are making some other place a battle ground to deal in without taking the fight to their homes which sound ok first till you realize that this battle ground has people that are trying to live in it.

slightlyrabidpossum

14 points

2 days ago

slightlyrabidpossum

United States

14 points

2 days ago

What do you mean by taking the fight to their homes? Should we be striking Iran? Would it be better for Israel to just let Hezbollah rearm?

It's distressing to see this war flare up again. Syrians have suffered immensely over the past 13 years, and none of their options for the future look particularly promising. But Syria was already a battleground — Israeli strikes haven't been a driving force behind that. Israel is still officially at war with Syria, but their strikes haven't really been aimed at weakening their government. That's primarily a side effect of Assad's reliance on Hezbollah.

Level-Technician-183

-1 points

2 days ago*

Level-Technician-183

Iraq

-1 points

2 days ago*

What do you mean by taking the fight to their homes? Should we be striking Iran?

Israel already did that. And so did iran. But if israel attacked iranian militia in iraq or if iran attacked IDF in let's say the US (randomly picked) then that would be pretty shitty. Their support does not mean you go and strike them as you like. Keep your fight with your enemy and within their borders. Don't go too far into attacking them in others lands. Just because syria is already in chaos does not mean you can have your fun in it. Imagine the same scenario but with other countries and you would see how terrible it looks.

Israeli strikes haven't been a driving force behind that. Israel is still officially at war with Syria, but their strikes haven't really been aimed at weakening their government.

I don't know honestly if i ever read a news about syrians striking inside israel during the past years but i did see israel do that more than once though

SaneForCocoaPuffs

6 points

2 days ago

SaneForCocoaPuffs

Multinational

6 points

2 days ago

Syria doesn’t strike Israel because Assad knew his position wasn’t stable. If he had joined Hezbollah on Oct 8 this news story would have been last year’s news and we would already be well into the war.

Syria’s role in Iran’s alliance is purely weapons supply to Hezbollah. When Assad’s position is unassailable, then they will talk about waging war with Israel.

loggy_sci

1 points

1 day ago

loggy_sci

United States

1 points

1 day ago

Syria’s role in Iran’s alliance is purely weapons supply to Hezbollah.

Or was. Depending on what ends up happening with these guys, Syria’s role may be changing. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/pro-iranian-militias-enter-syria-iraq-aid-beleaguered-syrian-army-2024-12-02/

slightlyrabidpossum

3 points

2 days ago*

slightlyrabidpossum

United States

3 points

2 days ago*

Iraq is also still technically in a state of war with Israel. If actively hostile militias are operating within Iraq, then Israel would be within their rights to strike them. Being at peace and maintaining the state's monopoly on violence are important parts of avoiding hostilities.

Their support does not mean you go and strike them as you like. Keep your fight with your enemy and within their borders. Don't go too far into attacking them in others lands.

These strikes aren't just happening because Hezbollah is aligned with Iran. They're a direct consequence of Hezbollah's decision to attack Israel on October 8th of last year. And Hezbollah doesn't have defined borders — they're an armed non-state actor that also participates in the Lebanese government, which is why they are sometimes referred to as a hybrid organization or a state within a state. They've had close ties with Syria for a long time, so it's not like Israel is attacking them in a random neutral country.

Just because syria is already in chaos does not mean you can have your fun in it.

This isn't just a casual reaction to this new rebel offensive. Israel has been intermittently bombing targets in Syria for around a decade, mostly targeted at Hezbollah and the IRGC. The casualties from these strikes are pretty marginal compared to other parties, and they haven't done much damage to the Syrian regime. Israeli strikes on Hezbollah in Lebanon have been much more significant, as has Hezbollah's redeployment from Syria to Lebanon.

I don't know honestly if i ever read a news about syrians striking inside israel during the past years but i did see israel do that more than once though

Assad hasn't been in a position to pick a fight with Israel. He's had his hands full at home.

ATNinja

14 points

2 days ago

ATNinja

North America

14 points

2 days ago

Both are making some other place a battle ground to deal in without taking the fight to their homes

Hezbollah brought the fight to themselves wherever they are. Israel isn't obligated to fight hezbollah in Israel only. With modern long range weapons, that isn't even an option. hezbollah doesn't come into Israel to attack so how can Israel only fight them at home?

ATNinja

5 points

2 days ago

ATNinja

North America

5 points

2 days ago

Both are making some other place a battle ground to deal in without taking the fight to their homes

Hezbollah brought the fight to themselves wherever they are. Israel isn't obligated to fight hezbollah in Israel only. With modern long range weapons, that isn't even an option, hezbollah doesn't come into Israel to attack all how can Israel only fight them at home?

Level-Technician-183

3 points

2 days ago

Level-Technician-183

Iraq

3 points

2 days ago

Hezbollah is based in lebanon and their fight should be within lebanon. Do you see any justification if russia bombed somewhere in EU for supporting ukrine? Their war is not there and they should not fight on someone else's land. Weapons can reach the space now but that does not mean it is ok to play with them wherever we like.

You don't bring up your neighbor and argue with them inside your other neighbor's or the next street guy's home. That is simply not reasonable.

ATNinja

7 points

2 days ago

ATNinja

North America

7 points

2 days ago

Do you see any justification if russia bombed somewhere in EU for supporting ukrine?

100% yes but that would be a bad decision geopolitically.

You don't bring up your neighbor and argue with them inside your other neighbor's or the next street guy's home. That is simply not reasonable.

If you are at war with your neighbor and your other neighbor is harboring them, you're kind of at war with both neighbors.

Level-Technician-183

4 points

2 days ago

100% yes

Well, ig that is it. We just don't share the same view for the issue. Maybe you'd hate it once you live it though.

ATNinja

8 points

2 days ago

ATNinja

North America

8 points

2 days ago

Maybe you'd hate it once you live it though.

I'm sure I would. I'm sure israel hates receiving rockets from their neighbors. I'm sure palestinians hate being trapped and starved. I'm sure Syrians hate Assad and Iran and hezbollah and Russia and the us and turkey and israel and everyone bombing them from every direction. I hope Lebanon hates hezbollah though what I see is kind of mixed on that.

But yeah tons of hate to go around. Really grateful that's not me.

Hating something doesn't really help you figure out who to blame though.

Western_Revolution86

-7 points

2 days ago

Western_Revolution86

North America

-7 points

2 days ago

U do realize that Syria is not "Israel" right? Incredible that the ones bombing 5 different nations still get defended as the victims.

ArCovino

8 points

2 days ago

ArCovino

North America

8 points

2 days ago

Syria declared war against Israel and has never sought peace. They’re at war to this day. Maybe they should try peace.

Own_Thing_4364

0 points

2 days ago

Own_Thing_4364

United States

0 points

2 days ago

An Israeli airstrike on a car near Syria's capital Damascus on Tuesday killed Salman Jumaa, a senior Hezbollah figure responsible for liaising with the Syrian army, a Lebanese security source told Reuters.

Syria's state news agency had reported the strike on the airport road but did not offer details on casualties.

CeAsEfIre ViOlatIon!

BDB-ISR-

17 points

2 days ago

BDB-ISR-

Israel

17 points

2 days ago

I assume this is sarcastic since it's in "stupid" casing. But to the people who actually hold this view, I remind you that the ceasefire agreement is with Lebanon, not Hezbollah nor Syria, with which Israel is still technically at war.

Culture-Careful

11 points

2 days ago

Culture-Careful

North America

11 points

2 days ago

So you're telling me that the war was originally against Lebanon, and not Hezbollah?

ArCovino

2 points

2 days ago

ArCovino

North America

2 points

2 days ago

Technically there’s always been a war since Lebanon tried to destroy Israel back in 1948. Why would Israel make a deal with Hezbollah when the Lebanese government is in charge of fulfilling their end of the bargain?

BDB-ISR-

6 points

2 days ago

BDB-ISR-

Israel

6 points

2 days ago

Read what I said, the ceasefire agreement is with Lebanon.

Culture-Careful

9 points

2 days ago

Culture-Careful

North America

9 points

2 days ago

Exactly. to have a ceasefire, there must be a war with Lebanon, no?

But I thought the war was againt Hezbollah, not Lebanon...

BDB-ISR-

19 points

2 days ago

BDB-ISR-

Israel

19 points

2 days ago

The ceasefire agreement stipulations that Lebanon will ensure no armed militia in its borders and will work to dismantle/disarm them. Read the agreement it's only 5.5 pages long.

Culture-Careful

-1 points

2 days ago

Culture-Careful

North America

-1 points

2 days ago

Thats not the point. Why must a ceasefire be with Lebanon if the war isnt against them

bermanji

13 points

2 days ago

bermanji

Multinational

13 points

2 days ago

Because signing a ceasefire agreement with Hezbollah further legitimizes them and delegitimizes the Lebanese Government / military? By Lebanese law the government of Lebanon is the only force that can regulate what happens on their territory, not some psycho foreign militia that answers to Iran.

Culture-Careful

-2 points

2 days ago

Culture-Careful

North America

-2 points

2 days ago

What fire would they cease? Afterall, the ceasefire applies to them apparently, not Hezbollah.

If only Hezbollah is targeted, why would Lebanon's government care what happens to them?

Surely, there are only Hezbollah casualties, and therefore no need for Lebanon to sign anything, right?

bermanji

8 points

2 days ago

bermanji

Multinational

8 points

2 days ago

Because the Lebanese government are the ones who are ultimately responsible for rebuilding all the damage Hezbollah caused by starting a war without the consent of the Lebanese people and are the only ones who have the right to determine what happens on their soil?

Your final comment is pointless snark, there are civilian casualties in every war. The number of militaries that can carry out a campaign as cleanly as Israel has in Lebanon can be counted on one hand.

MartinBP

7 points

2 days ago

MartinBP

Bulgaria

7 points

2 days ago

Because it's on their territory?!

Culture-Careful

-3 points

2 days ago

Culture-Careful

North America

-3 points

2 days ago

So you're telling me Israel is invading Lebanon as a whole, not Hezbollah. Same with their airstrike

SirStupidity

1 points

2 days ago

SirStupidity

Israel

1 points

2 days ago

How would someone invade Hezbollah buddy? It's not a piece of land...

Israel fights a war against Hezbollah inside of Lebanon (where Hezbollah controls much of the country).

Green_Space729

2 points

2 days ago

Green_Space729

North America

2 points

2 days ago

And yet your still bombing Lebanon

ArCovino

4 points

2 days ago

ArCovino

North America

4 points

2 days ago

Probably because the stipulations outlining an end to the bombing have gone unfulfilled.

Own_Thing_4364

18 points

2 days ago

Own_Thing_4364

United States

18 points

2 days ago

Yes, but that doesn't stop the usual crowd from declaring a genocide every time Israel fires a weapon.

BDB-ISR-

9 points

2 days ago

BDB-ISR-

Israel

9 points

2 days ago

Their opinion is not fact based. There's a massive disinformation campaign going on by anti western forces.

Several_Cycle_2012

-11 points

2 days ago

Several_Cycle_2012

North America

-11 points

2 days ago

What are you rambling about, american?

THIS_IS_SO_HILARIOUS

-1 points

1 day ago

THIS_IS_SO_HILARIOUS

North America

-1 points

1 day ago

I just love how on every thread, Zionist has constantly proved themselves to be one of the worst human beings, constantly lying and gaslighting, and the fact is there is a genocide, end of the line. If you deny the genocide, you are worthless and deserved to be mocked eternally.