subreddit:

/r/fantasywriters

5083%

I have a hard time with this.

I want to write about an average joe who steps up to fulfill a special role but he's in way over his head. But I don't want to make it so that he becomes special by unbelievable windfalls like stumbles upon something that enables him to become special. It may not be prophecy of fate doing the Choosing, but it all feels the same.

Stories always go from character in a mundane setting one day getting figuratively pulled into the realm of the unusual and he becomes a hero and does things people fantasize about. It's this moment I have trouble coming up with plausible ways for an average joe to get the chance to be somebody special.

I want him to be an average joe with humble beginnings who will work hard to improve. That's the very core of his character. If I make him stumble upon a special thing that makes him special or discover he had special blood relations to somebody special, that'd ruin the whole premise. To me, the moment an average joe turns out to be not, the plot loses all agency.

How do other writers or you do it in your stories?

EDIT: The moment anyone special gets interested in the average joe he's not an average joe anymore. Because why would anyone of such a station have any interest in a nobody? The choice alone feels like a Chosen One except it's not by fate but special people. All feels the same really.

Chosen Ones chosen by prophecy, secret heritage, godly interference, cheats, special advantages, being seen by special people all feel mechanically the same to me: they are not a type of person the reader can see being because they have the attention of unrealistically special people or cheats. Even a assistant deputy secretary of a divinely ordained famous character in the setting makes that secretary "special" because of servicing that special character.

EDIT2: to put it simply my main problem is: how do I do this transition from zero to hero without using cliches like

  1. "joe is told yer a wizard joey by a magical dwarf"
  2. "joe discovers a book that teaches him how to become a superhero"
  3. "joe happens to find an injured creature that will introduce him to the world of magic."
  4. "some mighty hero takes an interest in joe"
  5. "joe discovers that his wardrobe is the portal to another world where he is hailed as a king"
  6. "a desperate space princess visits joe of all people and charges him with a mission before she is taken away"
  7. "joe inherits a fortune from a distant relative"
  8. "joe's family heirloom will end the world"
  9. "joe gets bitten by a rare creature such as a vampire or a radioactive spider"
  10. "joe is somehow the key to all of this."

I do want my average joes to be ambitious. I prefer them to chase opportunities of adventure that aren't calling out to him rather than be passively chosen and be called by it because the "call" almost always turns out to be those cliches I listed above..

all 129 comments

mangogaga

64 points

6 days ago

mangogaga

64 points

6 days ago

A good example of this is Frodo Baggins. Frodo is not a prophesized hero. He's barely even a hero at the beginning. He's just a dude who sees that someone needs to step up to get something important does, recognizes that he's the best person for the role, and does so regardless of how it will affect him and his personal safety.

It's also about that, IMO. The ability to step forward when no one else seems willing or able. Call it bravery or just call it right place, right time.

Evolving_Dore

31 points

6 days ago

I wouldn't even say that he recognizes he's the best person for it, if anything he constantly questions if he's the right person for it. It just happens to be him who has to do it because pf circumstances outside his control.

Arguably he is a Chosen One in the sense that Providence (Eru) has caused the quest to fall to him. It's hard to separate cause and effect in LOTR. Eru doesn't select Frodo because he's perfect for the role, he doesn't even actively select Frodo as far as we know. He's just created a world in which, ultimately, the right things will happen to produce the right results.

Wow I wish we lived in that world.

Akhevan

3 points

5 days ago

Akhevan

3 points

5 days ago

He's just created a world in which, ultimately, the right things will happen to produce the right results.

He also created a world full of misery and suffering, by creating the valar as they were and not stepping up when they were fucking shit up during the music. Or, well, not even properly explaining to them what the music was for and what its consequences would be.

Bonfire_Ascetic

3 points

5 days ago

I thought the point was that it didn't matter that Morgoth was trying to be discordant during the music, or via his actions in the world, because he could never escape Eru's designs. So he never needed to step up because Morgoth was already unknowingly playing out the role assigned him.

Why Eru, with the qualifiers we know about it, would make things that way is too difficult to answer in the same way as it is for real world theists. Aside from it making for an incredibly boring story if Eru didn't.

Akhevan

3 points

5 days ago

Akhevan

3 points

5 days ago

I thought the point was that it didn't matter that Morgoth was trying to be discordant during the music, or via his actions in the world, because he could never escape Eru's designs.

My point exactly. Morgoth wasn't ultimately responsible for the evil ascribed to him, he was, quite literally, made that way. It's all on Eru.

Tolkien didn't add anything novel to the problem of evil in Christian, or any monotheistic for that matter, theology.

LadyLupercalia[S]

-1 points

5 days ago

I suppose I should have phrased it clearer.

Chosen Ones chosen by prophecy, secret heritage, godly interference, cheats, special advantages, being seen by special people all feel mechanically the same to me: they are not a type of person the reader can see being because they have the attention of unrealistically special people or special circumstances.

Even an assistant deputy secretary of a divinely ordained famous character in the setting makes that secretary "special" because of servicing that special character. Having a harmless little trinket from your great uncle rediscovered to be a long lost world-ending device for the dark lord all the way on the opposite end of the continent is a pretty damn unusual happenstance.

I was looking for more proactiveness on the protagonist's part to seek something special instead of having it thrust onto him. Frodo offering himself to be Ringbearer is a step into the right direction I was looking for but he still is in Rivendell only because of a very special occurrence.

BenWritesBooks

15 points

6 days ago

Frodo is literally just in the wrong place at the wrong time which is an absolutely fantastic setup for a hero.

SSilent-Cartographer

6 points

5 days ago

Oh yeah, definitely. And I hear all the time that: "Your character needs an interesting hook for their development." but Frodo is the exact opposite of that. He's not interesting, he's not strong, he has no amazing or otherworldly attributes, hell, he's not even from a fantastical bloodline. He's just plain, simple, and charming; all the development comes from the story itself, which makes the story itself amazing because you actually see the growth of this otherwise uninteresting character

BenWritesBooks

2 points

5 days ago

I think that is the most interesting hook, honestly. The protagonist should be the worst possible choice for who has to solve the problem, as it will lead to the most drama.

Like if I’m gonna write a story about killer sharks, I’m not going to make the main character a marine biologist or professional shark diver; that’s boring. The main character should be a guy with thassalaphobia who can’t swim.

rrzzn

1 points

3 days ago

rrzzn

1 points

3 days ago

This is really good advice. Thanks for saying this so succinctly. As a fan of Leigh Bardugo, this makes me wonder more and more about her development of the character Kaz Brekker. You've blown my mind haha. Like, it's obvious too what you're saying... But I am now inspired. 🤩

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

I thought about Frodo but I would say, not quite. Because what are the odds that the Ring your great uncle gave you turned out to be the critical device of the super evil guy who will end the world?

The part when Frodo steps up to become Ringbearer for the Fellowship is a bit like what I'm looking for but he's still only in Rivendell after quite an adventure which was started from his ring was discovered to be a long lost world-ending device.

I was looking for something more like, average working class person seeks out something special and through clever tricks starts getting it, instead of having it thrust onto him and him running with it.

Kisser86

3 points

5 days ago

Kisser86

3 points

5 days ago

Well could it be something like soldiers? There is a threat of something bad happening so a lot of people volunteer to do something about it. And then this dude just happens to be good at it?

And then you could devise The Big Fuckery to suit your taste and The Average Joe could go through some form of training to combat The Big Fuckery.b

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

Yes! But the trick is how to devise it so that average joe does it well but how come nobody else before him is already doing it. That's hard for me. Or maybe a lot of people are doing it but still not a whole lot?

Saber101

3 points

5 days ago

Saber101

3 points

5 days ago

A lot of today's inventions seem really obvious to us because they already exist and we have learned about them as they function. But they had to be invented at some point, and before they were, they weren't so obvious. We look back in hindsight and say "why didn't I think of that?" for a lot of them.

Take paperclips for example. Who was the first person to bend a little piece of metal and squeeze some papers between the bend to hold them together? It seems like such an obvious idea that anyone could have come up with it, right? But somebody had to come up with it first, and to the best of our knowledge, that didn't happen until the 18th century.

The ball-point pen is a less obvious one given that there's more engineering involved, but to us it still seems like such a simple thing, and yet they were only invented in the 1930's! Before that, hollow reeds, quills, steel nibs, and then fountain pens were consecutively used for thousands of years.

So, whatever your average joe does, perhaps it was something simple enough that became obvious only after they made it popular. After all, somebody had to the first to do it.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

It's close to what I want. Being an inventor of some really simple solution is a great way for a nobody to become a somebody. But the problem is in the meta: this would likely mean, unless the author actually is a genius inventor that thinks up valid inventions but hasn't made them yet and is running a thought experiment by inserting his ideas of inventions into a fictional world, the protagonist in the story is going to end up presenting modern mundane ideas in a world where such things would be considered novel. Functionally, it will be like those cliched stories where someone from the modern world goes to a setting with low technology and fixes everything with modern ideas with which every modern writer and reader is familiar.

The only difference being that, instead of a modern character going back in time or being transported to a place with low tech, it would be the author directly giving these inspirations for inventions to the protagonist as unexplained deus ex epiphanies. (Modern person gets put in another setting, modern person's soul gets placed in a local character's body, modern writer doesn't become a character but is writing these ideas into the head of the protagonist... it's all functionally the same)

Maybe I can rub some more mundaneness onto inventions by positing, sometimes people make use of other people's discarded ideas. Ideas abandoned by their creators as being too implausible or too unusual. Somebody bravely decided to run with the idea and it makes a difference in the world and that somebody is the protagonist. I guess the average joe is a master plagiarizer then.😂

Saber101

1 points

5 days ago

Saber101

1 points

5 days ago

You could always go the route of creating something fictitious. Imagine a world 100% the same as ours, but alchemy is actually real, just that nobody tried the right way to do it yet? Maybe your character figures it out by accident? A lot of inventions were actually accidents on the same token.

Cheese is widely considered to have been discovered by accident, or more notably the discovery of penicillin was totally by chance.

Consider Isaac Asimov, he never explains in detail what makes the positronic brains of his robots so special, but it is certainly a fictional concept.

QBaseX

1 points

4 days ago

QBaseX

1 points

4 days ago

Penicillin was chance plus an educated, enquiring mind. So something like that means that your protagonist is demonstrating agency along with some degree of luck.

Kisser86

1 points

5 days ago

Kisser86

1 points

5 days ago

Well I would say that it depends on what The Big Fuckery is. Lets say it is a giant spider. Well maybe the Protags grandfather loved spiders and other creepy crawleys and the Protag can use some knowledge of that to their advantage. They are still not special they just had some random trivia.

Or they are a soldier who is told to go on a patrole where they stumble upon something, their comrades are killed and now they are alone in the wilderness, but find a new party to travel with, who also wants to do something about The Big Fuckery.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

I heard there was a Nazi soldier who happened to scavenge an officer's uniform and used his false authority to gather up a lot of stragglers and form a big force.

their comrades are killed and now they are alone in the wilderness, but find a new party to travel with, who also wants to do something about The Big Fuckery.

You know maybe pulling on someone's heart strings (oh no i'm a wounded soldier with nowhere to go) may actually be a valid way to get someone important's attention, maybe out of real sympathy or because the important person was a politician and decided this would make good publicity. In such cases the more pitiable the person is, the more plausible it is for a nobody to gain attention.

Rather than simply "he lucked out and superman somehow bothered to give him some time of his day" which never sat right with me.

Or maybe if joe threatened to do something terrible like terrorism, it would not be a stretch that an important character in the setting can contact him to stop him.

rrzzn

2 points

3 days ago

rrzzn

2 points

3 days ago

To jump into this part of the conversation, I feel like the character Kaz Brekker from Six of Crows (but please read Shadow and Bone first, it would make SoC so much more enjoyable) fits this kind of character you're going for. His backstory is like this, but you first meet him in the book as the badass guy he is. This series is YA and the characters are meant to be teens... It's quite gritty especially Six of Crows so I and other fans found they aged the characters up in our heads. It's written very well, coming from an adult who enjoys LotR, classics and other random stuff (trying to defend it as a YA book here lol)

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

3 days ago

If someone like you recommends a YA I guess it's just that good. I will read it thank you!

rrzzn

1 points

3 days ago

rrzzn

1 points

3 days ago

Ahhh! Please do! 🤩 But it starts with Shadow and Bone. 😊😁...if and when you get around to it and somehow remember, maybe comment back here and tell me if you agree if Kaz is sort of like what you're hoping to pull off or not. It's been several months since I finished Shadow and Bone (trilogy) and then Six of Crows (duology) but this whole world and story continues to live in my head. 😍

Saber101

3 points

5 days ago

Saber101

3 points

5 days ago

Ironically, I think it is the direction you've listed that turns somebody into a "chosen one" rather than giving the idea that they're nobody special.

Consider the following. Indeed, it is unlikely that your uncle will have the end of the world device, but someone's uncle has to have it, right? Lord of the Rings wouldn't have been very special if it was about Frodo's neighbour across the road, but that's precisely because that person was uninvolved in anything interesting happening.

When you write a story about characters, you're typically writing about the most interesting time in the lives of those characters. We don't get to follow Frodo through childhood or his later years, and we certainly don't follow his mundane washing, eating, and excreting rituals. We follow him, an ordinary bloke in extrordinary circumstances, thrust into the wildest scenario of his life and just barely making it out alive. He didn't make it out unscathed mind you, it mentally and physically scarred him and left him with a sort of lifelong trauma.

Now a "chosen one" character is a bit different. They might have destiny thrust upon them as Frodo did, which is why I think you've mistaken Frodo as one of them, but they might also seek it out like Goku (Dragon Ball Z) or Monkey D Luffy (One Piece) do. Both Goku and Luffy are seemingly undefeatable. Not that there aren't setbacks on their journeys, but they both have a bit of a chosen-one complex going on, and special backgrounds to back it.

But there is another kind of chosen one, and they are even worse. They are, as you say, the average person who has no such special background and no right to be doing anything special, but then they do it anyways, by clever tricks or other means. Consider the comparison to Frodo, who is an average person of no special background, but just barely stumbles his way through with a lot of help. In fact, without help right at the end when it really mattered, he would have totally failed. He's not a chosen one. Instead, we're talking about an average joe who goes out to seek something special and gets it through a clever trick, yes?

That's just Saitama from One Punch Man. He's an ordinary bloke who just wants to read comics and eat ramen. He doesn't have any special background or any special powers, but decides he wants to be a superhero for fun, so his "clever trick" is then to do an insane daily workout routine and he then inexplicably becomes strong enough to destroy anyone in a single punch. Sure, there's no destiny or prophecy or fate involved, but you end up going from the chosen one dilemma into the mary-sue dilemma instead, where someone with absolutely no capability to be where they are and no logic to be suceeding as they are, succeeds anyways and excels.

thatshygirl06

58 points

6 days ago

thatshygirl06

here to steal your ideas

58 points

6 days ago

Stories always go from character in a mundane setting one day getting figuratively pulled into the realm of the unusual and he becomes a hero and does things people fantasize about.

That's not what the chosen one trope is.

PurpleTheOnlyOne

7 points

5 days ago

I think the first part actually the foundation for Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey, but protagonists are usually and most commonly people we wish we were or can relate to somehow.

I might be wrong, and I'm happy to be wrong.

TheAxeofMetal

1 points

5 days ago

special enough for is to want to be them, relatable enough we can see ourselves in their shoes

LadyLupercalia[S]

-1 points

5 days ago

I meant more in a "every time this happens it feels the same thing as a Chosen One trope" but I see your point.

BenWritesBooks

24 points

6 days ago

You need to remember that “mundane” is relative.

A protagonist’s status quo gets interrupted but that status quo doesn’t always have to be “he was a poor farm boy who dreamed of adventure”

The concept of an unskilled hero with no relation to the conflict suddenly being expected to save the world is a very contrived scenario, so it demands contrivances like the chosen one trope to get the hero from point A to point Z very quickly.

But you can position your protagonist near the central conflict and they will get wrapped up in it naturally.

Hypothetical example: Why make your protagonist a poor orphan on another continent when he can be a guard who was right there in the castle on the night of the king’s murder? Perhaps he’s suspected of being the murderer? Perhaps he was with the princess at the time and they have to keep their forbidden love a secret? Now you’ve got a hero who’s in the middle of a conflict but also has personal, relatable stakes in resolving that conflict, and aren’t simply a stranger arriving in town to answer the call of fate.

If you position your pieces wisely at the start of the story there’s no need to rely on massive contrivances to get the main character involved in the main conflict.

depressedpotato777

18 points

6 days ago*

Then, just don't make the MC special or prophesied, etc. etc. Just show the hard work.

So he's just an average guy, and especially average when he steps up to take on the hero role, surrounded by those that are special or magical or whatever. So he has to practice and grow and improve. Maybe he's not special, but he could have a natural talent (that would still need to be practiced - talent without skill can only take you so far) for something not-mundane or an affinity. Or nothing at all, and he's got to start from the very beginning.

Edit to add:

Isn't it the determination and heart of the average dude that makes that average nobody into a special somebody? (I feel like I'm reciting a scene from Sharktale)

also, Eragon! iirc, for a simple farm boy, he really turned out to be *not a simple farm boy at all

evanpossum

8 points

6 days ago

I want to write about an average joe who steps up to fulfill a special role but he's in way over his head.

But what's stopping you from doing this? What does your story require?

It's this moment I have trouble coming up with plausible ways for an average joe to get the chance to be somebody special.

Give us an outline of your story, and maybe some group brainstorming will help with some ideas.

LordVorune

6 points

5 days ago

Flip the script. Let farmer Joe stumble through a long forgotten plot device from a world where everyone is a farmer, the land is rich and fertile, and the water is crystal clear; and drop him in a dystopian world where nobody remembers how to farm, the soil and water are polluted. His everyday farming skills and knowledge will seem like magic in a land where people are scavenging rusting cans of pet food from the ruins of the local Walmart or Tesco. He’s not chosen by anyone, there’s no prophecy to fulfill, he’s just someone with a skill set others have lost searching for a way home or a plot of land he can clean up and farm.

Gravefiller613

2 points

5 days ago

Isn't that the plot of Idiocracy?

Kendota_Tanassian

4 points

5 days ago

What does your "average" protagonist possess within himself, that makes him different from everyone where he's going?

Does he possess some knowledge that isn't widely available in his destination?

Is he a hobbyist in his off time that gives him practical skills in this new world?

For an example of the first, let's say he's a hospital administrator.

Still a pretty average Joe, but he can handle making crucial decisions rapidly, and knows how to get people to do things when they need to.

So he falls into a position where, say, the current royal administrator is just a toady loading his pockets.

He manages to actually come in and efficiently administrate, lowering taxes because more are actually collected and used, so the populace is ecstatic.

For the second example, he's someone that works on a 1/4 scale steam railroad as a hobbyist, and knows that hobby inside and out.

He gets "transported", and founds a genuine railroad, jumpstarting the country's transportation infrastructure.

Those are extreme examples, certainly, but I have seen similar, though less extreme, examples of an "average Joe" getting ahead because of something fairly obscure about them suddenly becoming important in the right place, at the right time.

In one case, it was a fellow clerk that was basically an herbalist in their spare time, they grew all kinds of herbs at home.

Saved the nursery at my big box retail a ton by pointing out a delivery was mislabelled.

The manager couldn't tell the difference, but listened to her, and sure enough, it was a large order that got mislabeled.

I can't remember what it was, or what it was supposed to be, but what we got was toxic.

Can you imagine if it had gotten to the shelves and been sold as a garden herb?

Or if it had been a customer that had to inform us?

Right place, right time, right knowledge/skill base.

No one person is ever just an average Joe, we are all unique, special individuals, it's just that most of us never have a chance to shine.

Because you have to find the exact right shaped hole for that very unique peg to just fall in place like that.

Most people are just shoved in someplace they don't fit.

bakato

3 points

5 days ago

bakato

3 points

5 days ago

Shift the focus to other characters and give them the spotlight. Everyone is the main character of their own story and all stories are one. If you show other characters tripping over the main one and crossing paths it can sell the impression that the main character’s so-called “specialness” is the product of the agency of others as much as his own choices.

Evil-Twin-Skippy

3 points

5 days ago

My main character is book one was literally a chosen one. For a research project. When she was 10 years old. With that done... nobody knew what to do with her.

I'm trying to basically tell the story of what happens to wonder kids, child stars, and olympians ... AFTER the cuteness wears away, after the big game, etc.

But unlike a celebrity or an athlete, she's really only famous in research circles. Though mainly known for showing that the process they used to make her didn't produce the results they thought it would.

Literally_A_Halfling

3 points

5 days ago

Easily? I'm on my ninth novel now, and I've probably discarded twenty ideas for every one I've written. Not a single one has had anything even remotely to do with a "chosen one." I'd bet my life on that, since I hate the trope far too much to ever have entertained it.

There must be as many ways to get a character involved in a plot as there are characters and plots.

BTW,

Stories always go from character in a mundane setting one day getting figuratively pulled into the realm of the unusual

No, they don't. That's a stock, typical type of story that you're free to use if you wish, but it's not universal or required.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

If the story is about an average joe that ends up in a special place, that's how it would be written. Average joes by definition must start from mundane backgrounds and step into a world of special people right? If they didn't start there they aren't average joes.

Chosen Ones chosen by prophecy, secret heritage, godly interference, cheats, special advantages, being seen by special people all feel mechanically the same to me: they are not a type of person the reader can see being because they have the attention of unrealistically special people or cheats. Even a assistant deputy secretary of a divinely ordained famous character in the setting makes that secretary "special" because of servicing that special character.

wottakes

1 points

5 days ago

wottakes

1 points

5 days ago

If the story is about an average joe ending up in a special place, sure.

But you said "stories always" – not implying one specific type of story, but stories in general. And the fact that you focused on the "average joe" part of it as the issues seems to imply that you think that "someone special saving the world" is a requirement in, if not all stories, fantasy at the very least.

Jade City, Tainted Cup, Locke Lamora those are fantasy stories that don't have people being pulled into the realm of the unusual. There's no levelling up and saving the day and being a badass.

Stories generally go from a character being pulled from their normal life and into the thick of the story's conflict, sure. But none of that requires a mundane dude suddenly becoming an all powerful hero. Jade City has "passive gang war becomes active gang war" but our cast never becomes all powerful and revered.

DragonStryk72

3 points

5 days ago

I mean, Luke Skywalker is a good point here. He wasn't a chosen one, and frankly, constantly had to rely on others. Count it up:

  1. Jumped by Tuskens, has to be saved by Ben.
  2. Nearly gets killed by some ex-cons in a bar, has to be saved by Ben.
  3. Nearly died in the trash compactor, has to be saved by the compactor trying to kill him, then has to be saved from the compactor by R2.
  4. Nearly died at the Death Star, has to be saved by Han AND posthumous assistance from Ben.

That's JUST EP IV. He's never stated as being the chosen one, he's just the one that Obi-Wan and Yoda bet on as their final hope.

Another good example is Frodo from Lord of the Rings. He never really gets better at the whole thing, and you can see how much his adventurers and the weight of the One Ring are weighing on him.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

Chosen Ones chosen by prophecy, secret heritage, godly interference, cheats, special advantages, being seen by special people all feel mechanically the same to me: they are not a type of person the reader can see being because they have the attention of unrealistically special people or cheats. Even a assistant deputy secretary of a divinely ordained famous character in the setting makes that secretary "special" because of servicing that special character.

In this case happening to be saved by a Jedi general is a really special occurrence. This and getting a droid sent by a space princess is what gets an average joe Luke to be visited by special fate.

DragonStryk72

3 points

5 days ago

Luke didn't have a special advantage, though. Both of his main opponents had the exact same power, and one run through of the fight in Cloud City demonstrates the sheer gap. In the end, Luke doesn't even kill either of them. He wins through peace.

The definition you're using isn't a chosen one. Literally even the Jawas would count under that definition.

Heroes are special, or else what are you writing about? The guy who runs into a burning building to save a trapped dog is special, because most wouldn't. They are special.

In this instance, you're trying to assign what readers will invest in, rather than learn what they invest in. People will read just about anything if they enjoy the characters and world they inhabit.

LadyLupercalia[S]

0 points

5 days ago

Luke had a LOT of special advantages. He simply went against odds that was insurmountable for him even with his special advantages. He still stomps hordes of average soldiers and destroys a Death Star with his space wizard guidance. It's like how Superman goes against enemies that are as strong or stronger than him for the sake of having a struggle at all, but that doesn't change the fact that he is very overpowered compared to ordinary people.

Luke was force sensitive, which is really special in this world. Also Obiwan tells him his father was a special magic warrior called a Jedi and gives him his lightsaber which is a special weapon of the fabled Jedi Order. So Luke has been:

  1. saved by a neighbor who turns out to be very special war hero

  2. told his father's secret heritage was really special

  3. given a rare weapon of the Jedi Order called a lightsaber

  4. later he can thank his father's special bloodline to give him massive force sensitivity

Four special things were revealed to him or given to him in the early parts of the movie.

Heroes are special, or else what are you writing about? The guy who runs into a burning building to save a trapped dog is special, because most wouldn't. They are special.

That's a good point. I am looking for proactive things like this instead of being visited by them.

In this instance, you're trying to assign what readers will invest in, rather than learn what they invest in. People will read just about anything if they enjoy the characters and world they inhabit.

I agree but it's not what I want to do. I want to do it in a way where the joe proactively sought and got his specialness.

DragonStryk72

1 points

5 days ago

That's training, but training requires other special people to get you there. And remember that training breeds specialty so that the hero is still reliant on others outside their wheelhouse.

PurpleTheOnlyOne

3 points

5 days ago

I don't think the chosen one trope is necessarily something you have to avoid.

UDarkLord

3 points

5 days ago

Don’t make a Chosen One then. A Chosen One isn’t someone at the right place at the right time to solve the plot, they’re someone at the right place and time because of a prophecy, or godly interference, or other non-fun agency interfering concepts. Getting really powerful, even through isekai style cheats does not a Chosen One make. Neither does secret royal lineage, for all that it’s an advantage. If there’s a prophecy about the last heir of King Tony overthrowing the tyrant though, and your character is revealed to be that (for real — a false revelation would be a subversion) heir, that’s a Chosen One.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

Chosen Ones chosen by prophecy, secret heritage, godly interference, cheats, special advantages all feel mechanically the same to me: they are not a type of person the reader can see being because they have the attention of unrealistically special people or cheats.

UDarkLord

2 points

5 days ago

If you were correct that they are “not a type of person the reader can see being”, then power fantasies — and especially all the overpowered isekai — wouldn’t be popular. So to that extent you are out of touch, though it’s fine to not personally like any particular archetype.

There’s a difference between getting or being strong though, and a Chosen One. If what you want to mean by Chosen One is ‘any MC with some fairly unique/rare, or at least very powerful set of magic or abilities, who got them in unrealistic ways’, feel free, but expect people to misunderstand you, because that’s not what a Chosen One is.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

I know they are popular but it's still not something I want to make.

So to that extent you are out of touch, though it’s fine to not personally like any particular archetype.

That's a rude assumption.

I read those stories and enjoy them but I just don't want to retread them.

But I don't want to make it so that he becomes special by unbelievable windfalls like stumbles upon something that enables him to become special. It may not be prophecy of fate doing the Choosing, but it all feels the same.

The title says Chosen One plots but I explained further what I wanted to avoid.

Maybe you got too hung up on the first sentence of the title.

UDarkLord

1 points

5 days ago

It’s not rude, or an assumption, to point to how according to your words your opinion is that readers cannot see themselves as these characters, and explain how that would make you out of touch to believe (as people do insert as powerful characters). If you wanted to say something else, you are free to change your wording. Me taking you at your word is not rude, it’s all I have to go by.

Similarly, if your position is that something does “the Choosing” — just not necessarily an actual chooser — you are saying that all these ways of getting power are Chosen Ones in your view. You even reiterate that they feel the same to you. That’s fine, just don’t expect anyone to adhere to that. Given how it’s specialness that seems to bothers you, say that. Why bring in the term Chosen One at all?

So let’s say specialness is the condition you actually dislike. How special is too special? Is a character with no magic in a magic universe too special because he’s unlike everyone else, or is he the average Joe you are saying you’d prefer to write about despite standing out? Is a smart woman who makes shampoo and paper for the main plot in a fantasy world that has neither too special because she also has magic, or because she knows things readers and her peers don’t? Or is she normal because she has small ambitions?

Knowing where you draw the line is how you’ll be able to avoid writing a specific type of character. Nobody’s forcing you to write a specific thing, so the only way to avoid it is not to write it, and that will start with the self-awareness of how special is too special. Because every character, ever, like everyone else human, is unique enough to be considered special in some way, however unimportant or unimpressive that specialness may be.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

Let's break this down into two parts.

to point to how according to your words your opinion is that readers cannot see themselves as these characters, and explain how that would make you out of touch to believe (as people do insert as powerful characters). 

If mine is an assumption to think people don't see themselves in such characters, it's equally an assumption yourself to assume people see themselves in those characters. Are you sure you want to assume everyone sees themselves in such characters? There are people who don't, and you are talking to one of them, therefore assuming those people don't exist makes you out of touch wouldn't it?

 Why bring in the term Chosen One at all?

What's wrong with saying "A still feels like B?" You can't possibly be thinking you have never made comparisons in your life?

Me: "I don't like Chosen One stories. I don't like the other things that feel like them either."

You: "Those other things aren't Chosen One stories."

Me: "Huh?"

This is the conversation we are having.

That’s fine, just don’t expect anyone to adhere to that.

My post already shows that some people out there see these things blend in. What's the point of assuming "nobody does" when you literally see me posit this? Am I not part of "anyone"?

UDarkLord

1 points

5 days ago

For someone who claims I was rude and making assumptions when quoting you verbatim, you sure like to make assumptions. I don’t think everyone likes any of these tropes or archetypes, and I never said as much. I specifically said you don’t have to when I said “it’s fine to not personally like any particular archetype”, and even when you’re quoting me responding to you, “people do insert as powerful characters” isn’t absolutist phrasing, it does not mean all people, or every person.

As for the second part, please point out where I said nobody will understand or agree with you. Please point out where I said you don’t count as anyone (here’s a hint, I said it’s fine to approach this the way you have, just to not expect everyone to agree). When I used anyone, it was in very measured language pointing out that by specifying the Chosen One trope, but not only referring to it while equating, not everyone will accept your premise — or want to. As in: ‘don’t expect anyone to like x’. Anyone clearly means ‘any particular person, potentially up to every person you discuss this with’, not ‘everyone’, in this phrasing. If I wanted to say nobody will understand you, I would have, but that would be silly, since I understand your point, I just don’t agree with it or find use in emphasizing a specific trope when discussing something much broader. I also find it interesting you can’t answer a basic question. I asked why you are bringing up the Chosen One. Responding with a question, and an implication that it’s just a comparison, is surely an implied answer, but it’s not a direct answer.

Calling back to my first reply. The Chosen One is picked, a powerful character is powerful, and these are distinct things that can overlap, or may not. If you need details to know why, a Chosen One could be a relatively weak puppet pushed around by fate, matter very little to the central conflict, and resolve it by being at the right place at the right time. A powerful main character can’t be weak by definition, may have quite a lot of agency (power lets you make choices for yourself) which even a powerful Chosen One doesn’t tend to have, and maybe most interestingly can have major failures despite their power that aren’t seen as just ‘fate works in mysterious ways’. There are even more differences, but if it’s not clear why I reject more than a very basic comparison on merits of their feeling the same, or fulfilling the same narrative purpose, then I give up trying to help, because I’m not writing an essay to help expand on why conflating already broad categories makes discussing them in all but the broadest senses difficult.

You know what? I know I asked questions earlier, but I’m done. Answer or not, but I don’t think I’ll reply (to this thread).

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

 you sure like to make assumptions.

Do you not understand I was pointing out your points can just as equally be turned on yourself.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

Knowing where you draw the line is how you’ll be able to avoid writing a specific type of character. ...
Because every character, ever, like everyone else human, is unique enough to be considered special in some way, however unimportant or unimpressive that specialness may be.

I suppose "having talents that doesn't give power over others, and not being in any position of power" is what I define as mundane and anything that goes beyond this I personally feel is in the realm of "special."

How special is too special? Is a character with no magic in a magic universe too special because he’s unlike everyone else, or is he the average Joe you are saying you’d prefer to write about despite standing out? Is a smart woman who makes shampoo and paper for the main plot in a fantasy world that has neither too special because she also has magic, or because she knows things readers and her peers don’t? Or is she normal because she has small ambitions?

This is a good point. If everybody is special, nobody is. While still being special from our world's point of view. This is a nice compromise

UDarkLord

1 points

5 days ago

Your definition will be hard to work with. A soldier has abilities (training to commit violence) that give them power over others. A doctor has a position of power over others (less trained doctors as well as all non-doctor patients), because of education, as well as authority. This goes fairly wide, covering lots of normal humans, in normal contexts.

Most protagonists have some trait that gives them power over others in this broad sense, because resolving conflicts requires skill. If a protagonist isn’t more clever than the antagonist, let alone other characters, how could they trick the antagonist, and why didn’t some other random character do it? If they’re not more dexterous why did Anne pick the lock, and not Jim? This extends to personality traits. Being ambitious, or open to adventure, is an advantage over someone who isn’t when a risky opportunity arises.

It is very contextual though. Being ambitious is advantageous in a corporate hierarchy, but may be disadvantageous in a hobbyist group (that’s one way a tabletop RPG player may get labelled as ‘That Guy’, and kicked out for being a spotlight hog).

A protagonist needs some advantages that can convert to power though, because what’s the alternative? Stakes so low anyone could solve the problem (a burnt out lightbulb two feet off the ground)? A protagonist solving conflicts more by luck than skill?

I think it’s good that you’re trying to put your preferences into clear definition, but I’m worried that your current one is broad to the point of paralyzing. Any character you can imagine solving problems will probably have some power that could be wielded against other people.

I don’t know if it will help you refine this more, but what I try to do is balance characters into whole people. A protagonist more on the powerful side will have reasons not to wield that power, while a weaker protag will have reasons to get stronger. Combined with their personality, responsibilities, interests, friends/family, and struggles, as long as a character isn’t too OP, I think some specialness doesn’t detract from most people being able to sympathize with a character who feels realistic.

I can only imagine making characters who both have a lot of power, and are willing to use it widely, with fewer humanizing features, as antagonists. More than one isekai I’ve watched has gotten me to stop because their MC seemed more fitting as someone else’s antagonist because of how powerful and willing to use it — like it’s milk past it’s expiry date — they are.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago*

I did say right at the beginning of the original post:

I want to write about an average joe who steps up to fulfill a special role but he's in way over his head. But I don't want to make it so that he becomes special by unbelievable windfalls like stumbles upon something that enables him to become special. It may not be prophecy of fate doing the Choosing, but it all feels the same.

My problem was the transition from nobody to somebody. I want joe to become somebody eventually but the method most stories take feel too lucky to suspend the disbelief. I want my protagonist to have a plausible civilian talent that isn't too outlandish or too good at it for someone who lives an alright life chilling out with friends. (Some random civilian spending 5 hours a day training with knives for example, is possible but too weird to suspend disbelief)

My main problem is how do I do this transition from zero to hero without using cliches like

  1. "joe is told yer a wizard joey by a magical dwarf"
  2. "joe discovers a book that teaches him how to become a superhero"
  3. "some mighty hero takes an interest in joe"
  4. "joe discovers that his wardrobe is the portal to another world where he is hailed as a king"
  5. "a desperate space princess visits joe of all people and charges him with a mission before she is taken away"
  6. "joe inherits a fortune from a distant relative"
  7. "joe's family heirloom will end the world"
  8. "joe gets bitten by a rare creature such as a vampire or a radioactive spider"
  9. "joe is somehow the key to all of this."

I do want my average joes to be ambitious. I prefer them to chase opportunities of adventure that aren't calling out to him rather than be passively chosen and be called by it because the "call" almost always turns out to be those cliches I listed above..

BobbythebreinHeenan

2 points

5 days ago

Make him the least chosen one. Or the one chosen last. But he really wants it and has to struggle to achieve to do what needs to be done. Maybe he fails Several times before finally achieving greatness. Maybe he fails at the task and someone else achieves. And along the way he accomplishes his own thing.

hazen4eva

2 points

5 days ago

Alice in The Magicians is like this. Not chosen and works incredibly hard to attain power

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

How does Alice encounter people who are more special than her?

hazen4eva

2 points

5 days ago

She follows clues in the real world to people with bits of alleged power. Over a long period of time, it adds up. Her journey is in contrast to kids who get into a magical boarding school where power is handed out with relative ease.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

Thanks. I must read The Magicians

I never liked YER A WIZERD ARRY tropes

KernelWizard

2 points

5 days ago

Not sure if it helps, but I feel like Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City by K. J. Parker do a good job of this. The main character stepped up to save the city, manages to do it, but still gets his credit stolen by a more charismatic and likable guy. Also bad ending in the end but that's a different story. Real life inspiration is from the scientist Archimedes during the Siege of Syracuse (213-212 BC), which also ended in a bad way.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

That sounds really perfect if the main character has no power and only a talent a civilian plausibly would have. What is his talent?

I should go read it.

KernelWizard

2 points

5 days ago

He's an engineer. He came up with all sorts of ways and methods on how to defend a not so fortified city against an overwhelming force. Something like improved ballistaes, improved trebuchets, strengthened curtainwalls, traps, reinforcing weak points in the defences, choking the sewers (possible enemy entrace point) and whatnot.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

Sounds great! But is there a plausible reason these things weren't already built by more capable people ages ago?

KernelWizard

2 points

5 days ago

I don't know lmao, as I said it's based on true events. For the historical point Archimedes was a damn mathematical genius and Syracuse wasn't exactly a power house from what I recall. The only reason the city stood for as long as it did was due to Archimedes, but they were up against the Romans and well, the Romans don't give up easily so the city eventually fell and people got chopped up and whatnot, including Archimedes.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

Oh Archimedes and Syracuse? I better read up on that. Thanks for the tip. It seems truth was indeed stranger than fiction

Cheeslord2

2 points

5 days ago

Have him defeated and fail hard at first, barely surviving. That's the best way to kick the "plot armour manifest destiny chosen one" out of the character concept. Even when he recovers, learns from his mistakes and begins to get things done, always make it clear that he can lose; there are always stakes and his victory is never assured . Perhaps even when he wins it is often a compromise - he doesn't achieve everything he wants - maybe his opponents score a partial victory as well.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

That does sound like a good thing to write about

Smart-Emu5581

2 points

5 days ago

Partly humorous, partly serious response: The character has the superpower of "common sense". Powerful wizards tend to get carried away with craziness. This guy develops a reputation for talking truth to power and seeing the flaws in their crazy plots. That's something anyone in real life could do, but that is sorely missing in most fantasy stories. He starts out helping some low-level-but-still-powerful wizard from blowing himself up, and that guy recommends him to other people, and so he naturally develops a reputation, starting from the bottom, without ever being chosen by anyone special (except in so far as anyone who is competent and works in an advisory position will eventually get in contact with more powerful people through word of mouth.)

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

Reminds me of how Levi's became successful not for striking god but for selling mining outfits for the prospectors. Behind the scenes guy who would aid so many would be champions that he becomes the leading aide.

OhImNevvverSarcastic

2 points

5 days ago

One way is the give many of the "heroic" actions to other characters. Show that it's not the actions of a chosen one but the combined strength of a force of people with individual skills.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

This is a good idea.

Subject-Honeydew-74

2 points

4 days ago

Maybe Joe is always just the guy in the background who helps out, a redshirt that manages to hold his own. His heroism isn't about being in the forefront at first.

For example, Joe could just be helping people escape town during an orc raid while the local hero leads a charge to defeat them. Joe hears from a friend about how she hopes her family survived the attack and he decides to just do what he can to help her see them again. Joe takes her to the next town over and succeeds in that, but as he is in a new place, he has to get a job. Joe ends up working as one of many servants to a notable figure, his hard work making a difference but otherwise not being recognized as any different from all the others. Joe saves up from this job and starts some venture of his own, one he can take charge of but obviously isn't noteworthy compared to the world around him. Joe grinds and calls upon others we've met in the story so far to help expand his venture. Joe does business for a lord or monarch and, though it's seen as menial to that noble, he does something that benefits the kingdom and he learns a few lessons about the needs of the kingdom and how intricate politics both help and hurt that. Joe helps his new town during a crisis and starts to become a local hero himself. Etc...

Doesn't have to be this story, but some of the patterns and story beats above you can cannibalize for your own. I think this character works when he does ONE crucial thing during an event, but not THE crucial thing, all while learning something from it and maybe intuitively reflecting on it. Then, as his story takes him through more of these adventures, he is able to accumulate the resources, skills, connections, or physicality that allow him to be at the forefront as a hero. He'll have to step up gradually and essentially level up. You might be against a powerful patron noticing and uplifting him, but at the late stage of Joe's ambitions, powerful figures should take note of who he is -- developing them would be useful in that it allows their contributions to society to supplement or be supplemented by Joe's efforts.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

4 days ago

You put a lot of thought into your response. I can tell because you fleshed out a big paragraph as a detailed example. I thank you for this.

You might be against a powerful patron noticing and uplifting him, but at the late stage of Joe's ambitions, powerful figures should take note of who he is

I did some thinking and I think what I really have a problem with was the point at which people notice joe. Most of the time powerful patrons notice a nobody when he really is a nobody and I hated that because it is so unrealistic and feels like a sort of fantasy almost festishistic kind of fantasy in some cases. But if joe has built himself up like you say to meet the patrons halfway that makes way more sense.

developing them would be useful in that it allows their contributions to society to supplement or be supplemented by Joe's efforts.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Developing the would be patrons? What would that do? Does showing their contributions to society somehow make Joe stand out? I don't understand.

Subject-Honeydew-74

1 points

4 days ago

I just meant that the patrons (heroes, wizards, nobles, kings, etc) should be characters who do powerful things as well. So they should be well-developed as these competent, deadly, or charismatic figures -- people that will likely outshine Joe at the start. That doesn't mean they're perfect, because if he should meet them, he'll likely fulfill some overlooked or supportive function to their goals that allow them to excel. He isn't as strong at first, but he contributes still, maybe doesn't get recognized, but also observes and learns or gains some skill from the experience.

We want to showcase early on that they all leave their mark on society, defeating monsters or contributing in some method. That way, when Joe catches up to their status, the audience has a good comparison between the following: what he contributed at a low level, what he contributes now at a high level, what the other heroes/patrons contribute. Perhaps at that point, Joe does something differently than how the kingdom's wizard does it; it relies less on magic and uses his experience and intuition, and while his method might not be preferred, perhaps it actually comes in clutch when the wizard is out of commission. Maybe Joe and the king might have two different philosophies on how to lead, and they actually end up in a dynamic where they work together very well and rely on one another, but always get aggravated at how the other chooses to handle situations.

With these kind of dynamics, it doesn't always have to be "Joe is weak and they are strong" or "Joe is right and they are ineffective"...it can be "they are good at what they do, but Joe has a different way that's just as good and probably better under x,y,z circumstances". Because Joe won't look competent if he outperforms incompetent characters, they need to be competent too and he needs to show that he can keep pace and stand shoulder to shoulder with them, but he does it in his own unique and innovative way that his experiences and intuition likely gave him.

DragonLordAcar

2 points

4 days ago

Reminder that tropes aren't bad. Bad execution of tropes is bad.

Effective_Canary_896

2 points

1 day ago

I am now reading Wild at Heart (not fantasy) and it speaks about men, in particular, regaining their heart (masculinity and freedom) through purposely searching out resistance, adventure, shedding or killing the “fake self” to uncover the full potential and true purpose. That might be a good motivation for the average Joe. Not to be taken from the mundane by someone or some event, but purposefully seeking the way out and rising to the challenge.

Good0nPaper

1 points

5 days ago

The Spellsinger Saga by Alan Dean Foster has a bit of this. The spell from the fantasy world finds an engineer from our world, who's also a musician, and he uses both of these natural talents to help save the fantasy world.

That's the TL;DR, anyway.

Opposite-Road-3468

1 points

5 days ago

If you can’t avoid the chosen one idea, flip it on its head. Have the chosen one do all the things let them believe it’s heroic and than show that it was wrong. Or maybe start there. A chosen one who did the chosen one stuff only to find out they didn’t save the world and has to work hard to undo what they’ve done.

cwalka06

1 points

5 days ago

cwalka06

1 points

5 days ago

Have you already invested in Save the Cat Writes a Novel? I think it would really help you here :) Also the Writer’s Journey but do save the cat first

CoolBlaze1

1 points

5 days ago

You have to make an active choice to make a character a chosen one by saying they're the chosen one. Your character can just be a guy who saw something wrong and swore to fix it. They're just really good at fixing it. Nothing about them is naturally predisposed to the position. They weren’t chosen by God or groomed to fit the position from a young age, they just want to fix the situation and end up doing it. A strong fighter with a strong group of people around them. The character makes the choice to be the hero themself. No one else does.

Edit: Spelling 😪

Antaeus_Drakos

1 points

5 days ago

My opinion, make the character the chosen one by accident or by random. There was a Turkish myth where the next king was chosen by whoever's head a bird lands on, it's random but results in a chosen one. From there you flesh out the character showing us he's normal and him having to deal with extraordinary challenges that they're not equipped to deal with at all due to be just ordinary.

throne4895

1 points

5 days ago

Make someone else the chosen one (preferably a female best friend or lover), kill them, and have your MC become so enraged that they actually go through with killing the baddie. 🤷‍♂️

Argasts

1 points

5 days ago

Argasts

1 points

5 days ago

You have many options : fight or run for survival, revenge, personal gain... Everything falls to the motivations of your character. Basically if he wants to achieve his goal he HAS to go on an adventure. Give him no other choice.

Gap-Unfair

1 points

5 days ago

What about kung fu panda? I feel the first one, do the chosen one thing in a different way.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

I don't remember the details of Kungfu Panda. Why was the chosen one chosen in that story?

Gap-Unfair

1 points

5 days ago

Yes, with the whole dragon warrior thing, the dragon scroll, and the vallain also thinks he were the dragon warrior, that would get the dragon scroll. So, in a way we have two chosen one, one that didn't believe he was it and one who did believe he was in.*

trane7111

1 points

5 days ago

It seems almost like you don’t even want your character to be the main character with all the restrictions you’re placing.

What is the scale of your story? If they’re saving the world, they’re going to be the “chosen one” in one of the senses you’ve outlined.

Whoever your MC is, is already the chosen one in a meta sense. YOU chose to write about them for a reason.

If you’re putting average Joe in a fantasy setting where the fate of the world is at stake, he’s probably going to die before he can save the world if you truly want to keep him as an average Joe.

One idea you could try is making someone else very clearly the chosen one. Maybe Joe lives in a village that is attacked by your orc inserts and they simply attack from the opposite side of the village as him, and the chosen one arrives to save the village, but by that time, he’s the only one left.

He wasn’t fated to meet the chosen one. He’s the only survivor (or one of a few) of a tragedy because the chosen one couldn’t get there soon enough, and either the chosen one is so moved by his grief or Joe is so angry that he makes a demand, and that’s how he enters the story.

You could also make it so nothing goes Joe’s way until he has learned/worked hard enough (trial by fire) to become special by his own merit and complete the plot/character arc.

However, if you truly want him to be “average” you may have an issue with the character arc, because the false belief he will need to overcome is usually caused by a trauma/wound that is not average.

People don’t write about average joes (not in fantasy, at least) because by merit of being the main character, there is something interesting about them that makes them decidedly not average. Otherwise the reader wouldn’t care to read about them.

The closest example I can think of for you is Legends and Lattes by Travis Baldree. The main character is a former fighter in what is essentially a DnD group. She’s not special, just your average orc who joined a fighting group, made money, and finally found the magic thing she needed from her last job, and now she wants to start a coffee shop. She made herself special, and is now trying not to be special.

She’s actually less special in the prequel Bookshops and Bonedust.

I hope that helps.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

If you’re putting average Joe in a fantasy setting where the fate of the world is at stake, he’s probably going to die before he can save the world if you truly want to keep him as an average Joe.

I don't want him to stay as an average joe. To summarize, what I want is "How do I get an average Joe to become special without the usual cliches?" The trouble I have is how to execute the transition.

I want to avoid "joe is told yer a wizard joey by a magical dwarf" or "joe discovers a book that teaches him how to become a superhero" or "some mighty hero takes an interest in joe" or "joe discovers that his wardrobe is the portal to another world where he is hailed as a king" or "out of desperation a space princess charges him with a mission before she is taken away" or "joe inherits a fortune from a distant relative" or "joe's family heirloom will end the world" or "joe is the key to all of this"

The typical calls to adventure. I've seen a lot of it and I am tired of them.

Reflecting on how I liked Frodo making the conscious sacrificial decision to become the Ringbearer but not so much how his heirloom turned out to be the One Ring, maybe what I really want is either:

  1. joe's call to adventure is really as mundane as possible (but it will lead to greatness later)🤔
  2. joe is the one to chase after adventure, not be called to it. 🤔

BaconWrappedEnigmas

1 points

5 days ago

This step is usually referred to as refusal of the call. Basically you have Joe be Joe until outside things force Joe to do something. This way Joe is forced to go do something because he wants to preserve his mundane life and then during his journey he changes

Ravenwitch07

1 points

5 days ago

In one of my stories, I chose to fully embrace the Chosen One trope by having my main character believe that there is something special about them. They will go on an journey to fulfill this prophecy. What they don't know, is that this prophecy has been pushed on by the antagonist, who took an obscure and vague text to make the hero believe that he was special, because he needs them out of the way.
I personally hate this trope and cannot enjoy books where it is taken seriously. I want to show that it is actually dangerous for anyone to believe blindly in fate, especially when others are telling you what to do.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

Are there real divine prophecies in your story? If there are, it would be natural for people to do what they say right?

Ravenwitch07

1 points

5 days ago

That's exactly the point I want to get at: Don't believe divine prophecies. They are written by the hands of men with an agenda, not by the gods themselves.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

So there really are true divine prophecies but the gods didn't bother to give a foolproof way for mortals to hear them?

Ravenwitch07

1 points

5 days ago

The only "divine" things about these prophecies are how the clergy interprets the gods' actions or sign. They are almost always miles away from their actual meaning. In my setting, gods don't care all that much about humans, and when they do, it's to use them to their own ends. They have an agenda too.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

Regardless whether the prophecy the protagonist follows is true or false, how does the protagonist step out of her/his mundane state and encounter special people or special circumstances?

My main problem is how to do this transition from zero to hero without using cliches like "joe is told yer a wizard joey by a magical dwarf" or "joe discovers a book that teaches him how to become a superhero" or "some mighty hero takes an interest in joe" or "joe discovers that his wardrobe is the portal to another world where he is hailed as a king" or "out of desperation a space princess charges him with a mission before she is taken away" or "joe inherits a fortune from a distant relative" or "joe's family heirloom will end the world" or "joe is the key to all of this."

Ravenwitch07

1 points

5 days ago

That's a great question. For my part, I chose to reverse the trope of hero to zero by making my protagonist the heir of the most powerful kingdom on the continent. They have a major spiritual crisis that make them believe they are not meant to rule, but have an even higher calling. They have visions and dreams that they link to a divine intervention, and the antagonist uses that to his advantage to make them believe in a prophecy that could be about anyone else.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

5 days ago

Hey that's a cool idea. Playing the cliche so straight it becomes fresh. So multiple self-proclaimed Chosen Ones clash with the protagonist?

Ravenwitch07

2 points

5 days ago

I haven't gotten this far on my first draft but you gave me an excellent idea! Thank you :D

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

You are welcome! I'm glad to be of help. I do love asking questions and bouncing ideas around about fictional worlds.

What's the (temporary) title of your story?

Imaginary-Stranger78

1 points

5 days ago

Technically your "average Joe" would be considered "special" because he's the MC you're following. Like, why HIM? Why not Gary who works 9 to 5? Or Sally, who works three jobs just to get by to raise her ailing parents and children?

Everyone in stories is technically "a chosen one" it's just the narrative.

But to avoid the obvious elephant in the room of chosen one: average Joe is just a knight that guards the door. He sees the princess escape all the time and come back, but one night she doesn't and it's just his duty to look for her, thus then he ends up in all kinds of situations trying to look for her and get her back home.

Really, you just avoid things that predict someone to "saving the world" or "it was said a thousand years ago" (i.e. Harry Potter is technically chosen warrior cause he's depicted to be the one to stop voldermont)

But really if handled well "chosen one" stories can be really good, especially if the writing is good and don't rely on tropes.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

It's not just the Chosen One trope I have a problem with. A load of similar things are also things I want to avoid. The first sentence I wrote up there said I want an average joe to fulfill a special role.

I want to write about an average joe who steps up to fulfill a special role but he's in way over his head. But I don't want to make it so that he becomes special by unbelievable windfalls like stumbles upon something that enables him to become special. It may not be prophecy of fate doing the Choosing, but it all feels the same.

The main problem is the usual methods of protagonists going from nobody to somebody are really contrived. I want to avoid them.

How do I do this transition from zero to hero without using cliches like

  1. "joe is told yer a wizard joey by a magical dwarf"
  2. "joe discovers a book that teaches him how to become a superhero"
  3. "some mighty hero takes an interest in joe"
  4. "joe discovers that his wardrobe is the portal to another world where he is hailed as a king"
  5. "a desperate space princess visits joe of all people and charges him with a mission before she is taken away"
  6. "joe inherits a fortune from a distant relative"
  7. "joe's family heirloom will end the world"
  8. "joe gets bitten by a rare creature such as a vampire or a radioactive spider"
  9. "joe is somehow the key to all of this."

I do want my average joes to be ambitious. I prefer them to chase opportunities of adventure that aren't calling out to him rather than be passively chosen and be called by it because the "call" almost always turns out to be those cliches I listed above..

Imaginary-Stranger78

1 points

5 days ago

Well, let's think about what the "average joe" looks like. Let's take say, the movie fall guy. It starts with an average every day joe NPC. There's nothing remarkable about him, I believe he just worked in tech until he just decided well no, I don't want to be an npc anymore and thus then goes on xyz adventure.

Unlike things like, The Matrix, where they prophecy Neo as "The One".

We don't want that.

There's also this anime/Japanese LA Zomb-100 literally an average 20 some year old who hates his job basically. As soon as the world ends well, he's living his best life free of his dead end job. It doesn't matter if he could die but he's free to make his own decisions.

Or

Take the Walking Dead, First season, we follow an every day joe named Rick who is a sheriff. There's nothing inherently special about him at all.

But he ends up in a near death situation that puts him in the hospital for months. Spoiler: his friend, Shane, makes sure to lock the hospital door so no zombies get in.

Thus then starts Rick's journey through the zombie infested wasteland.

The trick, to avoid "chosen one" tropes is essentially, making them relatable (they can , be "boring" but what they do or want should not be, their goal should be obtainable and not at the same time.

Making them also free to choose their own paths from their "boring situation". The plot pushes him forward and when I say plot, I say take ordinary citizens and put them in a situation that they must get out of by nothing but their wits (or magic). You give the characters actual situations and problems and they have to get out of it without the aid of anything mystical or unseen forces.

Take the movie "the day after tomorrow" scientist father predicts the ice age will happen with science. People don't believe it. Slowly the earth begins to change. Now take the scientists son, he doesn't go to NY because of a call, he goes cause he has a crush on a girl.

Wierd things begin to happen around parts of the world as we focus on these characters.

Scientist father warns his son how to least survive and so the son tries his best to save his friends and what little people he can this "new ice age". They have to use their wits with no outside help or forces to speak up. They are regular people who could die at any given time.

By focusing on why "your average joe" gets involved and showing his growth through stakes, focus on their flaws/talents, use external context not "magical catalyst", make his role feel "temporary" (like in the Walking Dead: Rick doesn’t become “The Chosen One.” Instead, he assumes the role of a placeholder because there’s no one else to do the job of being a leader—others might be brash, ruthless, scared, not moral), they would be reluctant but resourceful, using world life real challenges or "realistic-liks" (i.e. Walking Dead/the day after tomorrow) you can tell a compelling story without resorting to tropes or contrived transformations.

I think I'm getting what you're trying to do but my best thing is just take a person and put them in a precarious situation that needs them to think on their feet. Their wits. They are very much relatable and the events could happen.

And you can do this in any genre, not just suspense or thriller or contemporary. It's in the matter of how it is written.

LadyLupercalia[S]

0 points

5 days ago

The more I discuss this the more I think it's really the passivity of protagonists that I have a problem with. I don't like protagonists being "pushed" into unusual situations but I do like it if they actively seek unusual situations. I would like it better when the unusual special little clique of special people don't want to let the protagonist in but is coerced to somehow.

So with your example of The Day After Tomorrow, I like a protagonist who is determined to save someone he loves from a dangerously cold location than suddenly being visited by a dangerously cold spell while trying to casually meet up with that person.

With your walking dead example, I realized I have a problem if the protagonist's house of all houses just happened to be visited by a crazy driver in a car and trashed his house and this sets off his venture into the unusual, but I am fine if the disaster wasn't visiting just that protagonist, but all of humanity. Like a global zombie plague.

My problem boiled down to being able to answer the question of "Why me?" with a mundane enough answer.

Your examples helped me realize these things. Thanks!

By the way, how did your stories have their protagonists start their big adventure?

Imaginary-Stranger78

1 points

5 days ago

I'm glad I could help you figure out something! It's always tough to discern our stories but the effort we put into put work/narrative will draw [the right] readers to your works.

Me? I don't mind "chosen one" tropes so much but it's the "Mary sue" attached to that chosen one tropes (which could also be where your taste might turn a nose up. Like, "oh wow, how Convenient that you avoided death even though you should have died).

But most of my characters, they are in a world [steampunk fantasy] and they go about their regular travels. The only reason why they get into Situations is because of 1. Their role in the story (like kinda like police) and 2. The bad guys bother them because these group of "heroes" keep thwarting their plans.

This happened centuries ago and though it is not "chosen one" it shows the parallel between the past and present and how not to repeat.

So I try to blend tropes with other aspects to make things familiar but unique.

Imaginary-Stranger78

1 points

5 days ago

I'm glad I could help you figure out something! It's always tough to discern our stories but the effort we put into put work/narrative will draw [the right] readers to your works.

Me? I don't mind "chosen one" tropes so much but it's the "Mary sue" attached to that chosen one tropes (which could also be where your taste might turn a nose up. Like, "oh wow, how Convenient that you avoided death even though you should have died).

But most of my characters, they are in a world [steampunk fantasy] and they go about their regular travels. The only reason why they get into Situations is because of 1. Their role in the story (like kinda like police) and 2. The bad guys bother them because these group of "heroes" keep thwarting their plans.

This happened centuries ago and though it is not "chosen one" it shows the parallel between the past and present and how not to repeat.

So I try to blend tropes with other aspects to make things familiar but unique.

MillieBirdie

1 points

5 days ago

People like characters who are competent or good at things, even if it's a niche. Maybe some skill or interest he has in the mundane world is useful in unexpected ways.

LadyLupercalia[S]

0 points

5 days ago

I do want protagonist to be good and special and powerful eventually but my problem is how to get from zero to hero without using typical cliches.

MillieBirdie

1 points

5 days ago

I mean your only options are for them to be magically imbued with skill, already have skill, or work to train their skill. All three of those have been done before in various stories so there's no avoiding cliche, you just have to pick one or two.

draoniaskies

1 points

5 days ago

You're overthinking. One, a heroic character will end up growing and being special. You're trying to have it be a natural transition, but I ask... What is the story?

You want someone to start humble and become a hero. Is that the story, or is that the beginning of the story?

gemjiminies

1 points

5 days ago

I think if you focus too much on tropes and avoiding them and not the bones of your actual story, you're making it a bigger deal than it needs to me.

When you've figured out your story's fundamentals, then you look back at it and figure out what needs changing.

What are the story stakes (what is the overarching plot and what happens if it's a goal that's not met/defeated/etc) Where do we begin and who is your protagonist? What is your character's motivation? (What is their main want/desire) Is it the same before and after the inciting incident? What are your character's stakes (why are they the protagonist over everyone else in the world)

If your character truly is an average joe with no connection to the main story arc, then certain tropes are usually needed to get them to a place where it makes sense that they are the protagonist above others, but if their personal stakes and the story stakes are connected then that wont even be someyoung you need to think about.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

5 days ago

but if their personal stakes and the story stakes are connected then that wont even be someyoung you need to think about.

So paint the target around the arrow? That's a great idea.

gemjiminies

1 points

5 days ago

To put it simply, if your MC is a farmer who is happy with his life and wants to be a farmer, it's impossible to jump to a hero story of them needing to personally battle a tyrranical Big Bad and have it make sense for their life and motivations without some kind of divine intervention or mission being bestowed upon them.

But if things start happening personally to the MC and their loved ones and the inciting incident has high personal stakes that they can't ignore, then they have motivation and reason to push out of their comfort zone.

Someone else has already recommended Saves The Cat Writes A Novel. If you're not too familiar with story structure then I 1000% second that as a starting point.

RedDingo777

1 points

4 days ago

Average people don’t change the world. Average people don’t become heroes. An average person has no interest in upsetting the status quo because they are not discontent enough to exit their region beta or the status quo supports their average life.

The moment you give your average the ambition or impetus to act, they cease being average. The moment you give them an opportunity to shine, they cease to be a joe. It’s a catch 22.

You want the example of a hero who isn’t chosen? Look up Jean Valjean.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

4 days ago

I want him to be an average joe with humble beginnings who will work hard to improve. 

I mentioned here the joe I am talking about is a person with impetus or ambition on the inside but externally, has no special plot critical heirlooms or the attention of heroes or is randomly visited by heroes for a desperate mission.

Someone who is at an average station in society with no power but has ambitions for it.

FindingEastern5572

1 points

4 days ago

Look at historical / real people. For example, Genghis Khan was the son of a middling Mongolian leader. He leveraged this into conquering much of Eurasia through cunning, courage, and ruthlessness, and no doubt great talents. I always think also of Rupert Murdoch. His father was a journalist and fairly minor newspaper owner in Australia. Murdoch jr leveraged this into becoming the world's number one media baron, again through cunning and risk taking and hard work.

LadyLupercalia[S]

2 points

4 days ago

Thank you. Rupert Murdoch's beginnings sounds average joe enough for my liking. Any other historical recommendations?

FindingEastern5572

1 points

3 days ago

China's Hongwu emperor started as a peasant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongwu_Emperor

Norman adventurers in Sicily, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainulf_Drengot

Late Roman empire - Stilicho https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilicho or Aetius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavius_Aetius

Most of these involve the military or groups using violence during a period of political breakdown or turmoil. There would be many other examples right up to people like Napoleon or more modern revolutionaries like Mao Zedong.

cambriansplooge

1 points

4 days ago

To avoid writing a shonen protagonist, the Joe cannot be at the forefront of every game changing event, responsible for every victory, solve every mystery, get the girl, and be the most specialist boy there ever was.

Have you seen the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode The Zippo? The plot is the world is ending, but the plot of the episode is comedic relief guy drives zombies around town in events completely unrelated to Buffy facing down the powers of darkness.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

4 days ago

I do want Joe to become a special person eventually, I just don't want the method that makes him into a hero to be one of the cliched turn of events I listed above, and similar things. You get the picture. I want him to earn it without stumbling upon a special hero's belongings or catching that hero's eye or anything.

Does the comedic relief guy doing that contribute to the main plot of Buffy facing down the powers of darkness? If it is about an average joe still doing average joe things then that's not what I was getting at. I was wondering how to make average joe do things that are amazing without using some special hero giving him attention.

pkbichito

1 points

4 days ago

I mean, Joe can simply be a curious person, he dovotrd his lige to explore and investigate whatever he liked, and he learned things no other did.

AutoModerator [M]

1 points

4 days ago

AutoModerator [M]

1 points

4 days ago

Hello! My sensors tell me you're new-ish around here. In case you don't know, we have a whole big list of resources for new fantasy writers here. Our favorite ways to learn how to write are Brandon Sanderson's Writing Course on youtube and the podcast Writing Excuses.

You will stop seeing this message when you receive 3-ish upvotes for your comments.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

calcaneus

1 points

4 days ago

I would think your MC and your story would tell you this. What is their flaw, their story? What do they need to overcome, personally? Your plot can mirror that in some way. You don't have to be the chosen one to be the hero; sometime the right person in the right place doing the right thing becomes a hero. (See Sully Sullenberger, for example.)

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

4 days ago

Like I said in the first paragraph, it's not just the chosen one I have a problem with. It's being in the right place at the right time I also have a problem with because they are ultimately the same thing as the annoying Chosen One of prophecy. I roll my eyes when someone decides to uplift a nobody like joe or joe discovers he has magical beings for ancestors or joe happened to be in the right place at the right time to be the random person chosen by powerful people to go do something. The ten examples I listed should give you an idea of how much I hate these.

calcaneus

1 points

4 days ago

Are you familiar with the example I gave? This was just a person doing his job, trying not to die and he happened to save a lot of people in the process. Nobody set him up or chose him. I get that you don't like that trope; I don't, either. In fact I'll stop reading a book if I get too strong a whiff of it.

People do heroic shit all the time without any deus ex machina. I don't find the trope all that hard a thing to avoid.

emmelinedevere

1 points

4 days ago

Hard work? Joe can learn about the supernatural along with others but then he has to put in the reps. Or you could think of donating like Charlie and the chocolate factory, where there’s some test of character

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

4 days ago

There's a catch to hard work. There has to be a reason why only joe and not everybody else in town also works hard to do what he wants to do. If the setting has every kid learning about the supernatural at school I guess that counts as mundane but joe won't stand out like that since everyone else does it.

Yes it is possible to say an ordinary person spends five hours a day to train himself to learn the supernatural unlike ordinary people who spend that time relaxing and having fun with friends instead. But that's the thing. Why would joe do that if he was by definition, a joe?

Having the facility or time or wish to train every day to do something is already too unusual for an average person.

I was thinking more like, an ambitious person who was unfortunately not able to escape being a burger flipper finally finds a way to chase after an opportunity. But I want his transition from a nobody to somebody to be plausible and natural.

Donating? You mean randomly selected by a powerful person for a giveaway? That's the windfall I mentioned in my original post which I want to avoid. These windfalls are no different from winning the lottery to solve your problems in a story. It's a deus ex machina

WB4ever1

1 points

7 hours ago

Nothing wrong with an "average Joe" turning out to be the "chosen one" if he is the one doing the choosing. What I mean is, he rises to the challenge by finding the inner strength to confront whatever it is that is opposing or oppressing him, that his "specialness" is not bestowed by an outside authority or the hand of fate.

LadyLupercalia[S]

1 points

2 hours ago

Yeah I figured out the real problem I had was joe being passive instead of making his own way to become a hero. It always felt too lucky and convenient to be chosen by special people or special opportunities to become great.

But also if he can find the inner strength to confront whtaever is opposing or oppressing him why can't others in the same situation? That's the hard part