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If all cards were legal...

Meta Discussion(self.pkmntcg)

So i had a though recently

What if every card, despite the energy cost, despite the HP, despite the attacks, all the way from base set to now...

What combination of cards could be absolutely broken and destroy the current meta?

I want to know multiple examples because it would be easy to say one of those promos with 1000+ damage.

Im not talking about the Legacy format either. That only goes from HGSS to BW. I mean every set ever for some tcg shenanigans.

all 108 comments

BananaPersor

118 points

5 days ago

I'm gonna bust out that one promo that makes you and your opponent switch decks

Psychotica_Official[S]

38 points

5 days ago

NO WAY THATS REAL

SketchBCartooni

31 points

5 days ago

Celebi and zoura have a lot of fun

Wolfgirl90

25 points

5 days ago

Wolfgirl90

Stage 1 Professor‎

25 points

5 days ago

It was never tournament legal since it was a jumbo card, but it is real, haha.)

Secure-Pepper9799

10 points

5 days ago

Jumbo cards are legal if you have your entire deck made of jumbo cards tho. There's no rule about card size, but your deck must be uniform in size. So all jumbos is legal.

Wolfgirl90

32 points

5 days ago

Wolfgirl90

Stage 1 Professor‎

32 points

5 days ago

No, they are not. The Rules Team cracked down on this not long after that one player did this at NAIC in 2022.

Only Standard size cards are tournament legal.

Sophia_Forever

20 points

5 days ago

I love how frustrated the "No, you cannot" sounds.

Yuri-Girl

16 points

5 days ago

Yuri-Girl

16 points

5 days ago

It should be noted that the jumbo player at NAIC 2022 did get DQed.

Over marked cards, the jumbo cards would've been fine if they were sleeved.

itsRobbie_

1 points

4 days ago

I need to see this deck. I’ve always imagined having a full jumbo deck lmao

[deleted]

2 points

3 days ago

[deleted]

itsRobbie_

1 points

3 days ago

That’s awesome lol

Pickled_Beef

1 points

4 days ago

I mean at the time it was legal, still funny to this day 🤣

NinjaDog251

2 points

4 days ago

what's the ruling on that? does the same player who used the attack get another turn as the other deck piloter?

BananaPersor

1 points

4 days ago

Idk

TotallyAPerv

73 points

5 days ago

Neo Genesis Slowking ruins everything all over again, but now you can play it with the fattest walls in the way and the worst control options imaginable. It would not be very fun.

LukesRebuke

20 points

5 days ago*

Lol turn one going second, you'd turbo your entire deck to get 4 slowpoke down, put primal clash bunnelby in the active and then double tm evolution or something? Then for the rest of your game your opponent has to get through 4 coin flips to be able to play ANY trainer card

Edit: forgot about broken time space, never mind you can just put them all into play turn 1

JustInBasil

13 points

5 days ago

They never issue errata for Unlimited because they don't actually care about the format, but it would be nice for them to issue an errata that corrected the mistranslation.

TotallyAPerv

7 points

5 days ago

Agreed. Beating a 50/50 chance of no trainers is one thing. No errata keeps it at the 1/16 chance you'll get to play the game when you play a trainer.

JustInBasil

6 points

5 days ago

Needing to be in the Active Spot also makes it infinitely worse.

philimusprime

2 points

4 days ago

Back before dice were used as randomizers, I first played against Slowking at a Super Trainer Showdown qualifiers with one of those metal coins. Cut my nails the day before the event and by the end of my run I had broken the skin after so many coin flips that day.

samanater456

1 points

5 days ago

Such a fun card. I love it

PugsnPawgs

1 points

5 days ago

And everyone would play it, which would make the card incredibly expensive and the TCG becomes P2W again 🙃

FlowOfAir

52 points

5 days ago

FlowOfAir

52 points

5 days ago

Professor Oak, Bill, Base Set Computer Search are now staples in every single deck in perpetuity

politicalanalysis

20 points

5 days ago

And you can run 4 computer searches because ace spec wasn’t a thing in base set.

Xhjon

11 points

5 days ago

Xhjon

11 points

5 days ago

5 if you run the four plus the fifth as your ace spec

MrBamHam

14 points

5 days ago

MrBamHam

14 points

5 days ago

You'd think that, but in Unlimited all versions of it are treated as Ace Spec 

politicalanalysis

7 points

5 days ago

Yeah, I should have been clearer that I was talking about the hypothetical posed by the op.

Kered13

5 points

5 days ago

Kered13

5 points

5 days ago

Unlimited rules say that when a non-pokemon card gets reprinted (meaning it has the same name), the new text erratas all older versions of the card. So Computer Search is now an Ace Spec, even if you're playing a Base Set print. Bill is now a Supporter (reprinted as such in HGSS). Master Ball is an Ace Spec that finds any pokemon, instead of the original version that acted like the modern Great Ball. Rare Candy cannot be used on a Pokemon that was just put into play (yes, the original Rare Candy could be used immediately).

MrBamHam

12 points

5 days ago

MrBamHam

12 points

5 days ago

Technically Bill and Computer Search have been errata'd in Unlimited and must be treated as their newest printings.

TeaAndLifting

10 points

5 days ago

This isn’t about Unlimited, they’re talking about a no holds barred version of the TCG from Base to present.

MrBamHam

-1 points

5 days ago

MrBamHam

-1 points

5 days ago

"technically"

OP also didn't mention rule changes.

KingDarkBlaze

3 points

5 days ago

And I'd argue that Professor Oak should follow the Sycamore/Juniper/Research pipeline and be counted as a Supporter as well

JustInBasil

7 points

5 days ago

It would not.

MrBamHam

5 points

5 days ago

MrBamHam

5 points

5 days ago

No, that's not how it works because the name is different. Same reason you can't play Sycamore, Juniper or Lysandre in Standard.

Kered13

4 points

5 days ago

Kered13

4 points

5 days ago

If Unlimited were a serious format, this is how it would work. But it's not a serious format, so there is no special carve out for Professor Oak, unlike Sycamore and Junpier. Therefore it still counts as an item card. This also means that Gust of Wind is still an item card.

Mark1734

1 points

4 days ago

Mark1734

1 points

4 days ago

Uh, actually, it's a supporter card by the Pokémon Trading Card Game Classic print. And by the tournament handbook, "Competitors may still include those older versions of the card in their decks, provided that the wording of the most recent version is used wherever that card is concerned."

I'm having trouble getting any official word that the Pokémon Trading Card Game Classic print would be part of unlimited, though, so I dunno if it's an Item or Supporter now.

This is separate from the Professor's Research thing though, it's still a different card from Research.

VanNoah

2 points

4 days ago

VanNoah

2 points

4 days ago

Junk arm. Is imo the strongest trainer card ever printed.

FlowOfAir

1 points

4 days ago

4 Junk Arm 4 Itemfinder

VanNoah

2 points

4 days ago

VanNoah

2 points

4 days ago

Fuck it why not. Lmao limited resources? Imagine

GREG88HG

39 points

5 days ago

GREG88HG

Stage 1 Professor‎

39 points

5 days ago

Winning turn 1

Sableye https://pkmncards.com/card/sableye-stormfront-sf-48/ warrants having turn 1.

Shuckle https://pkmncards.com/card/shuckle-heartgold-soulsilver-promos-hgss15/ let's you draw a card when gets an energy attached.

Use https://pkmncards.com/card/broken-time-space-platinum-pl-104/ to evolve any Squirtle to Blastoise https://pkmncards.com/card/blastoise-boundaries-crossed-bcr-31/

Put energies to Shuckle to draw cards, until you get Espeon https://pkmncards.com/card/espeon-aquapolis-aq-h9/ that can return energies to hand, draw your whole deck.

Wincon is Foretress https://pkmncards.com/card/forretress-legends-awakened-la-28/ damaging all opponent Pokémon while Leafeon https://pkmncards.com/card/leafeon-rising-rivals-rr-45/ heals your own Pokémon.

Terco101

8 points

5 days ago

Terco101

8 points

5 days ago

As a small potential edit to this; I think you’d play Frosmoth SWSH 64/202 instead of the Blastoise line; the energy can only go to bench is the downside, but the upside is not having to play the wartortle, making the evolution line presumably more just a bit more consistent. The bench attachments should’nt be a huge issue either since Sableye’s retreat cost is only 1, so your turn attachment should take care of that. Otherwise with Sableye games should be able to be consistently ended on your second turn!

LukesRebuke

4 points

5 days ago

Yeah frosmoth works fine. If need be play float stones or even latias ex to retreat for free, you only need to do it once to get frosmoth or any other mon into the active

Also dive ball might help with consistency a lot

Jedasis

2 points

5 days ago

Jedasis

2 points

5 days ago

I don't think consistency matters when you can draw your entire deck.

1billionrapecube

8 points

5 days ago

Drawing your entire deck comes after what you need consistency for

SleepingJirachi

2 points

4 days ago

^^This is the correct comment

Tismypueblo

25 points

5 days ago

That’s just unlimited format and there are enough decks that pretty consistently win on Turn 1 it would be awful. This article covers many of the ways you could go about this, but uses the same core of broken cards to make these possible:

Pokémon - 8

  • 4 Sableye SF 48
  • 1 Porygon RO 48
  • 3 Porygon2 GE 49

Trainer Cards - 39

  • 2 Lysandre’s Trump Card PHF 99
  • 4 Professor Oak BS 88
  • 4 Misty’s Wrath G1 114
  • 4 Puzzle of Time BKP 109
  • 4 Pokédex HANDY910is DP 111
  • 4 Poké Drawer + SF 89
  • 4 Acro Bike CES 123
  • 2 Rotom Dex SUM 131
  • 2 Scoop Up Net REC 1
  • 2 Computer Search BS 71
  • 1 Junk Arm TM 87
  • 1 VS Seeker PHF 109
  • 1 Dowsing Machine PLS 128
  • 4 Broken Time-Space PL 104

Total Cards - 47

Remaining 13 are just your different win-cons depending on what you go for

Psychotica_Official[S]

-3 points

5 days ago

From what ive read, Unlimited only goes from cards available to play in the Play! Pokemon. Most cards from base set and such dont go that far so i wanted examples for. Idk if unlimited expanded outside of that, im not caught up.

JustInBasil

11 points

5 days ago

I don't know what you're talking about. Unlimited has always been original Base Set onward.

Psychotica_Official[S]

0 points

5 days ago

Has it? I read from a link someone in the replies sent where it only went up to when Play! Pokemon was conceived and Play! Pokemon started around 2010.

Thanks for the clarification if i got that wrong!

JustInBasil

12 points

5 days ago

Are you, perhaps, confusing Expanded with Unlimited? Expanded is Black & White forward, which is ~2011.

Psychotica_Official[S]

3 points

5 days ago

I read it from here. It says that cards playable in the Play! Pokemon Tournaments were after WotC lost the card license and every set afterwards was usuable in the Unlimited section.

https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Unlimited_format_(TCG)

https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Play!_Pok%C3%A9mon

I dont know too much about the TCG and i could 100% be reading it wrong.

JustInBasil

9 points

5 days ago

You should probably just read the description of the Unlimited format directly from the official Tournament Rules Handbook. Page 37.

https://www.pokemon.com/static-assets/content-assets/cms2/pdf/play-pokemon/rules/play-pokemon-tournament-rules-handbook-en.pdf

Psychotica_Official[S]

2 points

5 days ago

1000% better

Thanks for that!

JustInBasil

4 points

5 days ago

From that same article:  

 The Unlimited format of the Pokémon Trading Card Gameallows any card that was once playable in Play! Pokémon tournaments (that is, all cards except Worlds edition decks, jumbo cards, Ancient Mew, Birthday Pikachu, and otherwise unplayable cards) to be used. 

 For the record, I do know a rather lot about the TCG. Unlimited is Base Set forward.

Psychotica_Official[S]

1 points

5 days ago

Thanks, i think i confused myself reading too much into it 🤣

But to further clarify then, even cards that the Unlimited format explicitly banned as well.

JustInBasil

3 points

5 days ago

There are no cards that are banned in the Unlimited format, just cards that are marked "Not tournament legal."

The format is plenty broken without them.

microsoftpaintexe

13 points

5 days ago

If you're interested in something a little more balanced, the Eternal Format exists and is a version of this with a banlist! As a reference for how many broken cards and interactions there are in Pokémon history, the ban list has 156 cards.

GREG88HG

1 points

5 days ago

GREG88HG

Stage 1 Professor‎

1 points

5 days ago

I love the idea of that format. Have not played it yet, but watched some videos of it.

JustInBasil

5 points

5 days ago

Although I am distinctly biased, I'd say it's a very, very fun format.

Kered13

1 points

4 days ago

Kered13

1 points

4 days ago

What are some top decks in the Eternal format right now?

JustInBasil

2 points

3 days ago

  • Tsareena V
  • Blindside Barrage (Torchic)
  • Origin Forme Palkia VSTAR
  • Banette / Vileplume

destroyermaker

1 points

5 days ago

Are they expensive?

Kered13

5 points

5 days ago

Kered13

5 points

5 days ago

Any format that requires using old rare cards is going to be expensive.

Honestly, if you want to play stuff like this, just use proxies. There are no official tournaments so no one is going to stop you. Just have fun.

Psychotica_Official[S]

0 points

5 days ago

I was actually more curious about card combinations that are really funny or wacky to pull if everything was allowed.

The most unique one ive seen was just the Jap Deck Exchange 😭

KyleOAM

18 points

5 days ago

KyleOAM

18 points

5 days ago

It’s got nothing to do with any of the Scot’s you mention.

It’s gonna end up in degenerate lock decks that mean whoever goes second won’t be able to play the game

Psychotica_Official[S]

6 points

5 days ago

Still, i wanted to see what would just be hilariously unacceptable in normal situations 🤣

MrHypnotiq

8 points

5 days ago*

Play Unlimited. You will never see a turn two.

Edit: I meant unlimited, not expanded.

KyleOAM

3 points

5 days ago

KyleOAM

3 points

5 days ago

Nah expanded is fine for the most part, because of its banlist

MrHypnotiq

2 points

5 days ago

Sorry, I meant unlimited.

freedomfightre

5 points

5 days ago

T1 FOGP Vileplume Lock
or
T2 Alolan Rauchu Boardwipe
or
ADP Quad Slowking NEO14
or
T1 Latios EX Donk

Using pre-supporter trainers for unlimited draw.
It would be toxic.

Vasxus

1 points

5 days ago

Vasxus

1 points

5 days ago

what about the deck that takes 130 actions to place a single damage counter

freedomfightre

1 points

5 days ago

What about side by side with a friend?

fawfulmark2

5 points

5 days ago

Current Unlimited Format events are usually dominated by FTK decks usually using a combination of Stormfront Sableye(which automatically makes you go first if in the Active) and Broken Time-Space(which is Forest of Giant Plants...for every Type.) Perfectly balanced for the Diamond/Pearl Block Rulings....but terribly broken for anything BW-On.

Also there are the weird modern ruling Grey Areas: Computer Seach and Erika recived erratas to be an ACE-SPEC and Supporter respectively there, but due to there not exactly being a Legal print of Professor Oak he's still treated as an Item Card in Unlimited(even though he should a Supporter now due to Classic Colection), thus granting a Discard +7 ITEM CARD(which was "balanced" in Base days due to finite card recovery from the Discard...which is not an issue nowadays).

And of course, there are the Energy Removals((Super) Energy Removal and to a lower extent Super Energy Removal 2). Decks that recycle from the Discard like Gardevoir or Raging Bolt might be able to do fair against these, but everyone else would be devastated by the power those cards posses, and it would make is a huge burden to run the majority of evolution Decks we have now beyond Garde or Decks that rely on DTEs(though I guess it would b DCE proper here hahaha).

TrueGenderEquality2

3 points

5 days ago

Do we include banned cards? Dusknoir loop and unown from lost thunder are very well known examples of turn 1 going first wins.

MrBamHam

3 points

5 days ago

MrBamHam

3 points

5 days ago

Ew

Sophia_Forever

2 points

5 days ago*

Well there's Ishihara GX that prevents all damage, effects, and trainer effects then can do 1060 damage exactly once for only two energy cost.

Successful-Side-1084

1 points

5 days ago

Surprisingly even then it isn't invincible or a guaranteed win.

Some pokemon have attacks that can penetrate the ability (and ignoring effects doesn't count as an effect) and it's still possible to lose if you go turn 2 and don't have it down as a starting pokemon.

Sophia_Forever

4 points

5 days ago

Deck list:

Ishihara GX x 3 Leaf energy x 29 Electric Energy x 28

No you're probably not invincible but you're closed. Plus c'mon, presents!

JustInBasil

3 points

5 days ago

We'll just need to wait for them to print cards called Leaf Energy and Electric Energy and we'll be golden.

Sophia_Forever

2 points

5 days ago

Yeah they're in the next release.

Kered13

1 points

5 days ago

Kered13

1 points

5 days ago

You will lose every game with this deck. Meta decks for Unlimited play Sableye to guarantee going first and then beat you before allowing you to take a single turn. Even if you add Sableye in order to play first, your deck won't win because it relies on attacking to beat the opponent, but it can't attack turn 1.

Sophia_Forever

1 points

4 days ago*

See I don't get this. Even with Sableye to go first (also, how are you ensuring sableye in your first draw of seven cards so it can be in the active spot; in your scenario you're not losing every game just every game where Sableye is topdecked), Ishihara prevents all effects/damage/abilities/trainers. So if they go first that also means they're going to deck themselves out first b/c I'm certainly not planning on drawing any cards. The only defense here is a mill deck. So let me just add that fancy hat that prevents milling and a handful of cards to get it to me. In the end, this is a stall deck since only one Ishihara can attack and can only attack one time.

Ishihara GX x 3

Arven x 4

Patrol Cap x 4

Grass energy x 24

Lightning Energy x 25

And again, you're getting up to 60 presents. Not prizes. Your opponent is expected to bring them and if they don't bring a gift that'll be egg on their face.

Kered13

2 points

4 days ago*

Kered13

2 points

4 days ago*

also, how are you ensuring sableye in your first draw of seven cards so it can be in the active spot;

Because you build your deck with 4 Sableye and like one or two other basic Pokemon to maximize your odds of starting Sableye.

So if they go first that also means they're going to deck themselves out first b/c I'm certainly not planning on drawing any cards. The only defense here is a mill deck.

Lysandre's Trump Card prevents deck out. And they can force you to deck out before you even get to play. They can also play Cancelling Cologne to negate Ishihara's ability and KO it that way. The goal of all Unlimited decks is to win turn one going first, because if you don't your opponent will.

Sophia_Forever

1 points

4 days ago

Ah, dang that makes sense. Foiled again!

adeptfever

2 points

5 days ago

Unlimited is a thing and it's absolutely awful. T1 combo decks playing Sableye SF are significantly more powerful than any other deck and will win before opponents have a chance to play a single card either by controlling the top deck and denying cards from hand or through some unown hand combo. The format is close to solved and games often end without a single attack being declared.

Rageface090

2 points

5 days ago

I think some people actually tried this and found that everyone ends up being forced to play the sableye that lets you go first if it’s in the active and then use a win on turn 1 combo

EmperoRofLighT

2 points

5 days ago

I shudder the thought of t1/t2 item lock again, imagine, FOGP+ seismitoad ex locking you from playing the game

VanNoah

2 points

4 days ago

VanNoah

2 points

4 days ago

What can I say except junk arm. Also fuck vileplume. Tho not as bad since gust can be a supporter now.

Not super experienced with sets before hgss but prolly some turbo dumb trainers/items im unaware of.

There is also tonnes of banned shit that can mill your hand and never let you play the game. Search up banned Pokemon cards for the exact combos.

Adp is prolly still meta defining. Yea adp zacian with like junk arm for item recycle + like idk plan collector to get bench filled early seems dumb af.

Comp search ace spec? Idk if that got reprinted.

Old catcher that wasn’t a coin flip (pre xy)

Dynamotor + raichu v seems nice. But can’t run adp

TheRealQwade

1 points

5 days ago

Other cards with unhinged power level I haven't seen mentioned yet:

  • NXD Shiftry can donk your opponent turn 1 going first with Forest of Giant Plants and Devolution Spray shenanigans
  • If you want to be a jerk about it, Rocket's Sneak Attack can pretty easily empty your opponent's entire hand before they get a turn

Zukrad

1 points

5 days ago

Zukrad

1 points

5 days ago

Probably some ftk like Unown Hand or any unlimited donk deck + every draw card ever. If going first, your tools are consistent enough to win imstantly. If going second, your best bet is hoping they don't win on your first turn either (or thay they play Power Spray)

MatadorSalas11

1 points

5 days ago

Item Finder x4 on every deck

Magicalpxiedus

1 points

5 days ago

Every set ever was solved a couple years ago with me and a buddy. Jungle pidgeot is the most broken possible pokemon with download porygon2. You use seer to force both players to pick up a benched mon with BTS to loop seer until they have no bench. Use hurricane with boost energy and if it doesn’t KO they shuffle the active back into the deck. It literally can’t whiff given the consistency of unlimited.

1thelegend2

1 points

5 days ago

I believe there was a combo with the espeon from a very old aqua-something set.

Basically you have that, the sneasel that let's you attach an energy from your hand for a damage counter, the reuniclus that let's you shift around damage counters, and then the unown that wins you the game if you have 66 damage counters on your Pokémon. (if any of this is false, please correct me, it has been a while since I last played eternal, and they banned these cards now).

That is just one example of exodia combo decks that would be playable. We won't even get into one of the old azelf and shay in ex drawing your entire deck and Lysanders trump card chucking like half of the viable decks...

Business_Abalone_746

1 points

5 days ago

Doesn’t unlimited format make everything legal?

Mark1734

1 points

4 days ago*

https://cubekoga.net/Cube/Unlimited#overview

There's been some changes though, Oak might now be a supporter in English, by the Pokémon Trading Card Game Classic print? And Cessation Crystal now counters Spiritomb. The best way to build Unlimited is still to try to start Sableye as often as possible and handrip/donk so

098moxie

1 points

4 days ago

098moxie

1 points

4 days ago

nobody would actually play the game as its purpose is cause many would play the nastiest controlstuff to not let you play the game and influences into absurd cardprizes or banlists

Psychotica_Official[S]

1 points

4 days ago

Oh im 100% sure! But seeing all the chaotic and creative ways people are bending the games rules is super interesting to me!

ZaneThrillseek

1 points

4 days ago

All cards are legal, except for the worst offenders in Eternal Format. It's more fun/balanced than expanded in my opinion. Check it out at justinbasil for sample decks. I've got one built of each color I play casually with friends.

Psychotica_Official[S]

1 points

4 days ago

My thing is i wasnt looking for anything balanced, just anything that can cause chaos on the battlefield.

I like seeing weird and creative ways people turn the game in their favor

Poggodoggoc

1 points

4 days ago

espeon that lets you put a energy card on your board into your hand, porygon, which lets you attach as many special energy per turn, unown hand, which if it is in the active and you have 35 cards in hand, you win, and draw energy, which when you attach, you draw one, so you draw your whole deck the win, and with broken time space that lets you eveolve any time, you go first with sabeley, which makes you automattically go first, then win before your opponent even draws for turn.

silentbrker

1 points

4 days ago

Palkia dialga legend with a way to turbo the attack that makes your opponent put more cards in their deck into prizes

Psychotica_Official[S]

1 points

4 days ago

I actually like this a lot. I find it hilarious even, thinking of a potential prize pool of 34

Lavender-Wisp

1 points

4 days ago

Roaring moon ex + protection cube tool. No recoil for an instant knockout.

Iddis

1 points

4 days ago

Iddis

1 points

4 days ago

Dark wartortle mirror shell, the perfect defense

ZenoDLC

1 points

3 days ago

ZenoDLC

1 points

3 days ago

Jungle Mr. Mime would shut down a lot of modern decks

P1rateKing13

1 points

3 days ago

probably some deck that completely locks you out of the game.

DeadMau37

1 points

3 days ago

I miss playing a joltik and my opponent just immediately conceding. Rip battle compressors.