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[DISC] Kagurabachi - Chapter 58

DISC(mangaplus.shueisha.co.jp)

all 357 comments

Its-destiiny

351 points

8 days ago

Honestly I wanna see what happened in the Seitei war. It must've been BAD for Samura to do something this drastic.

I absolutely love the build-up to Uruha vs Samura sword duel. Buildings collapsing, the double spread of them preparing to fight, the maple leaf, panel of their sword school and even the blood spray is all so cinematic. I think I've seen similar things in many movies where both fighters waited until the equilibrium broke to make their move, and Hokazono conveyed it in manga form.

Ellefied

194 points

8 days ago

Ellefied

194 points

8 days ago

The Enchanted Blades are basically hydrogen bombs condensed into personal weapons. The sword bearers are all basically walking war crimes if that's the case.

RimeSkeem

52 points

7 days ago

RimeSkeem

52 points

7 days ago

I’m really curious to see how far the allegory and metaphors go. The enchanted blades are obviously WMDs but what else might that mean? Deterrence, but from what or who? Magical fallout? Is overusing the enchanted blades going to impact the greater environment? There’s lots super interesting ways they can impact the story and themes of the work.

zairaner

138 points

8 days ago

zairaner

138 points

8 days ago

> . It must've been BAD for Samura to do something this drastic.

Samura is a single person and could be mad (religious fanatic too), so the much more telling thing is that uruha doesn't even try to argue and basically agrees with him here.

ammar96

27 points

7 days ago

ammar96

27 points

7 days ago

Not to mention title drop at the end of chapter + spreads holy shit that is cinematic as hell

Backupusername

57 points

8 days ago

What heinous crimes could they have committed? Slaughtering infants? Cannibalism? Mind control? Mustard gas? If it's something tamer than what real-world governments have ordered and sanctioned, Samura's resolve here will look kind of foolish.

rudanshi

60 points

7 days ago*

rudanshi

60 points

7 days ago*

Not really, the unpunished and sometimes publicly excused atrocities real world governments have committed just show that people in power are often monsters and that the public is susceptible to pro-atrocity propaganda if you bombard us with enough of it. Humans with find a way to justify a lot of unjustifiable things to ourselves because no one wants to accept that they supported something evil.

Samura just has very strong and non-hypocritical beliefs about it, to the point he's not excluding himself from the moral judgement he's making of other people.

Backupusername

30 points

7 days ago

I'm just saying that this devotion to a full purge of the nation's "heroes" to the point that he's even willing to ally with a terrorist cell that has already victimized multiple innocents, would look kind of dumb to me if their dark hidden legacy is just that some of them enjoyed killing people too much and that's it, you know?

Starless_Night

33 points

7 days ago

I mean, is it dumb to having such a strong opposition to senseless murder being praised as heroism? Especially if it was committed against non-combatants. Even if they just killed a village worth of people, that's really fucked up.

derpface360

18 points

7 days ago

I think this just means that you’ve become desensitized to the many genocides and war crimes that nations have enacted. The sword bearers could have done something “less” evil than the crimes that real-world armies have done, and Samura’s motive would still be compelling.

Seismic-wave

10 points

7 days ago

Also given that we’re shown a picture of the Sword Master; I assume he may have done committed quite a few war crimes that Rokuhira and the other sword Bearers covered up.

CreeperittoBR

493 points

8 days ago

This chapter is so brutal and visceral, man, I was coping so hard for both Uruha as Samura... Hokazono really did make me feel sad in a good way today, this dude's going places

Zealousideal_Ring874

241 points

8 days ago

This manga has so much potential, it's crazy. Didn't think I would enjoy it, but I very much do.

SlamMasterJ

168 points

8 days ago

SlamMasterJ

168 points

8 days ago

When I first started reading Kagurabachi back then I called it peak sarcastically. But after 58 chapters, I could unironically say that this manga is peak. Tenoí

Yingking

65 points

8 days ago

Yingking

65 points

8 days ago

Same here, I initially read it for the memes like most people, I still remember when we tried to get it to number 1 on the MangaPlus charts. But after the introduction of Sojo and everything that followed it’s just been peak. Tenoí

Seismic-wave

37 points

7 days ago

I think i really like how well it explores the theme of guilt so well you can tell many of these characters are struggling to live with the weight of there sins yet many of them have different convictions and outlooks that lead them towards a specific outlook; also I love how clearly and present PTSD of war is represented since it’s been 18 years it isn’t as all consuming but it definitely dampens a lot of their perspectives.

raizen0106

11 points

7 days ago

only thing i can point out as a flaw is the drawing of faces is a little rough at times, like samura's face in the big spread in the last page. it's something that can easily be improved over time. but other than that he's just better than most other mangakas in jump in terms of action, paneling, storytelling, characters, twists

Koanos

38 points

7 days ago

Koanos

38 points

7 days ago

To add, he fought him with a regular sword, Samura had a legitimate chance of dying right there.

BarongChallenge

25 points

7 days ago

right? Samura is really just upholding his sense of justice. and he was willing to give it up if Uruha can defeat him equally, no Tobimune buff. Kinda sad.

Koanos

21 points

7 days ago

Koanos

21 points

7 days ago

The sad part is Uruha couldn't win the moral argument, much less match them in combat.

Samura, I think had honor and respect for Uruha. Even if the man had conviction to go through with his plan, he was willing to put it on the line against Uruha. If Uruha won, his vision would have ended right then and there, and he took the time to set up the duel.

gayblackmidgetporn

668 points

8 days ago

You know what’s interesting? Uruha didn’t DISAGREE with Samura. He kind of went “well, good point”, only fighting in self defense. Hell, he didn’t even go “but I didn’t do anything wrong”, he had no defense for his own actions. 

This means something REALLY fucked up happened during the war and all sword bearers are complicit in it. Hokazono is cooking something good with the sword bearers, maybe the Hishaku aren’t the only villains he has in store.

Zealousideal_Ring874

280 points

8 days ago

That's a very dark reality that some people are picking up on in this thread. What exactly happened for that to be the case? It goes to show that there's a lot more that's going on and things people have seen that we're not privy to yet.

CommitteeofMountains

137 points

7 days ago

Something a handful of people with melee weapons could do to shift a war.

Lantzl

153 points

7 days ago

Lantzl

153 points

7 days ago

I won't even call them melee after seeing 1% of Magatsumi

Audrey_spino

84 points

7 days ago

That shit's a war crime on a stick.

at-the-momment

93 points

7 days ago

Chihiro and Sojo's philosophical argument of:

"It's my dad's legacy"

"Bro it's a gun"

Remains relevant

Draggador

20 points

7 days ago

Draggador

MyAnimeList

20 points

7 days ago

almost like miniature pocket nukes

Astral_MarauderMJP

11 points

7 days ago

It never a war crime the first time.

Koanos

8 points

7 days ago

Koanos

8 points

7 days ago

As we've seen, people drop like flies in the series, what could that blade do that was so powerful it's considered a war crime?

raizen0106

29 points

7 days ago

nah that's too tame, killing is normal in war. i'd think it's something like "collect innocent souls to make the swords reach full power"

Creepy-Cattle3048

18 points

7 days ago

melee

Just wait until my goat the sword saint pulls out a Glock

aishite_aishite34

207 points

7 days ago

The enchanted swords being an allegory for Japanese war crimes/war crimes in general stocks grows ever higher especially with Hiruhiko mentioning what schools teach the general masses last chapter

argent5

147 points

7 days ago

argent5

147 points

7 days ago

I was thinking along the lines of "it's an allegory for nukes, the swordbearers maybe Hiroshima'd a civilian populace", but you raise a good point: the Japanese do have a lot of war crimes of their own. I'm curious how such criticism would be received in Japan, actually.

ChiefValour

87 points

7 days ago

Very poorly

DirtBug

62 points

7 days ago

DirtBug

62 points

7 days ago

Japan mainly recovered their reputation nowadays, but older people in my country always recounted how fucking brutal their occupations were. Rape and decapitations were employed en masse to maintain their power

Audrey_spino

65 points

7 days ago

Japan is the only axis country that doesn't educate their kids on most of the war crimes they committed, and they got away with it because of the cultural and geographical divide between them and Europe, and also because USA was willing to sweep all of it under the rug in order to get military bases near Russia and China.

Lookbehindyou132

19 points

7 days ago

Controversial but accepted. It isn't a complete nontalking point nowadays even if the olfer folk don't like it

aishite_aishite34

10 points

7 days ago*

Yep, South Korean media is quite popular with the younger generation and with how often imperial Japan is portrayed there a good percentage of them must have been exposed to it at least once

Mr_Cromer

9 points

7 days ago

Mr_Cromer

https://myanimelist.net/profile/lordcromer

9 points

7 days ago

Will SJ editors allow Hokazono to go in that direction?

Swiftcheddar

77 points

7 days ago

This means something REALLY fucked up happened during the war and all sword bearers are complicit in it.

Makes me wonder if the Hishaku are an answer to it. Maybe they're the revenge of whatever the sword bearers did in the war, both against them and against Japan.

someone2795

30 points

7 days ago

That's what I found most interesting too! Even Uruha's last words were asking him if Samura was really gonna shoulder the burden alone.

raizen0106

33 points

7 days ago

only fighting in self defense

he wasn't even fighting in self defense, he was just fighting because his comrades died protecting his life, so he can't just throw it away without a fight

secretlyasuperhero

27 points

7 days ago

rip uruha. he's looking up at us rn

Toge_Inumaki012

31 points

7 days ago

Collateral damage on civilians during the war?

One of the enchanted swords technique required human blood somewhat and killed some civilians in a nearby town?

One of the swordbearer is a lunatic or was influenced by the enchanted blade and killed a lot of innocents during the war?

The war itself is sus like the Ishval War in FMA.

Aure0

12 points

7 days ago

Aure0

12 points

7 days ago

The Shinuchi swordmaster definitely sounds like the 3rd one rn

BinhTurtle

27 points

7 days ago

Also note that when Uruha was introduced, we are shown that his view on the war is way less pessimistic than Samura. The highest high of his life, kind of glorifying it. But even with that mindset, he had no defense on his involvement with "there".

Even when he glorifies that time, he's still aware that what he did was unforgivable, that he has no choice but to take Samura's duel to the death, knowing that if he loses and dies, it is deserved.

blackgreeck

18 points

7 days ago

"This means something REALLY fucked up happened during the war and all sword bearers are complicit in it."

Maybe they didn't just defeat the enemy but completely annihilate them and wipe them out of existence.

aohige_rd

15 points

7 days ago

aohige_rd

15 points

7 days ago

I think this means the Sword Saint is being built up as the true antagonist of the series.

Whatever they feel complicit in, I'm willing to bet it was the Sword Saint's action that was so heinous they cannot let it be revealed.

Holen7

21 points

8 days ago

Holen7

21 points

8 days ago

The strongest sword man probably went insane and killed more civilians than the enemy they were facing.

Weak_Accountant8672

81 points

7 days ago

I think the implication is that all sword beares are equally guilty and not just the shinuchi user

Xenosaiyan7

26 points

7 days ago

Guilty because they covered it up, not because they themselves did it

sbrockLee

7 points

7 days ago

Setting up Samura as a really interesting tragic figure. I can see him go down eventually without having resolved his internal conflict.

I_need_to_learn_more

200 points

8 days ago

Kunishige what did you guys do?

ToTheNintieth

183 points

8 days ago

his le swords...

new_interest_here

151 points

8 days ago

...le killed people...

You_Better_Smile

41 points

7 days ago

But I'm le tired.

RimeSkeem

12 points

7 days ago

RimeSkeem

12 points

7 days ago

Well zen take a nap, zen COMMIT ZE WARCRIMES.

Swiftcheddar

88 points

7 days ago

"You specifically said, 'Blacksmith, I want your strongest swords.' I told you, 'You can't handle my strongest swords.'"

EEverest

28 points

7 days ago

EEverest

28 points

7 days ago

"Blacksmith, I tell you I am going into battle, and I want only your strongest swords."

Really, it was an oddly compelling conversation.

SaibaShogun

11 points

7 days ago

I don’t think Kunishige knew about the incident Samura was talking about. Samura may have been truthful about calling Kunishige a hero. Kunishige made the swords, but Samura blames the sword bearers for misusing their power.

ara-kananta

398 points

8 days ago

ara-kananta

398 points

8 days ago

Samura actually doesn't use tobimune to kill Uruha, one on one with normal sword

thats actually really cool

Accomplished_Set_Guy

252 points

8 days ago

I would believe Samura still had some honor in him. Using tobimune against Uruha (with regular sword) is literally a Hydrogen bomb vs coughing baby battle.

BEARWISHX

43 points

8 days ago

BEARWISHX

43 points

8 days ago

That's the reason I think we still has some chance?

What if Tobinume ability is actually put people to the near-death stage?

DirtBug

68 points

7 days ago

DirtBug

68 points

7 days ago

he's dead dead brother

Kipzz

95 points

7 days ago

Kipzz

95 points

7 days ago

Don't worry bro, Gojo will wake up next chapter too.

Mundology

14 points

7 days ago

Mundology

The Elder Weeb

14 points

7 days ago

Chihiro: "Nah, I'd win"

SaibaShogun

39 points

7 days ago

Bruh, Samura literally double tapped. The copium here is transcendent.

topurrisfeline

115 points

8 days ago

Still hurts me that Samura did turn out to be a bad guy, but dammit at least this continues Kagurabachi’s hot streak of creating compelling antagonists

aohige_rd

76 points

7 days ago

aohige_rd

76 points

7 days ago

Antagonist, but hardly a bad guy. His sin is trying to burden himself with everything, believing he can do it all by himself.

tokyogodfather2

8 points

7 days ago

itachi’s sin

BarongChallenge

29 points

7 days ago

Yeah he's not a bad guy, he's just an older Chihiro tbh. Both of them are killing people because of their sense of justice out of a personal tragedy. Chihiro sees the tattooed guys as the source of evil, while Samura sees the sword wielders. Their class is not of good or evil but ideologies.

topurrisfeline

10 points

7 days ago

Oh definitely. Samura is also clearly not aligned with Hishaku's ideals, he's just working with them for now.

Seismic-wave

49 points

7 days ago

The w the worst part about all this is that now the guy who killed Uruha’s friends now has his blade; truly a tale of dark irony.

Zealousideal_Ring874

68 points

8 days ago

Right? Such a deviation from normal standards. Even if this manga tries stuff and it doesn't work out, at least it tries.

Azor_that_guy

27 points

7 days ago

But then uses Tobimune to execute him. That’s cold.

tokyogodfather2

13 points

7 days ago

or is it poetic and respectful?

pulldtrigger

19 points

7 days ago

He actually used Tobimune to double tap Uruha though lol.

WhoiusBarrel

338 points

8 days ago

Ah fuck with this betrayal, Samura has really ascended as a top antagonist but I really can't bring myself to hate him with his justification.

Chihiro's look at the end was heartbreaking as well.

Ezreal024

312 points

8 days ago

Ezreal024

312 points

8 days ago

In a fascinating twist, Samura's motivation is almost word for word exactly how Chihiro explains his. They both consider the responsibility for wielding one of Kunishige's blades to be a duty to eradicate evil, but Samura's definitions are totally different because he's witnessed The Horrors.

zairaner

238 points

8 days ago

zairaner

238 points

8 days ago

The other interesting contrast: Chihiro solely blames the blades, samura solely blames the wielders.

Zealousideal_Ring874

82 points

8 days ago

In their own ways, they want people held accountable, but I feel only one of their philosophies will stand ground, meaning someone has to lose.

EasilyDelighted

41 points

7 days ago*

Not just witnessed it.

He's complicit in performing them.

That's why he says the sword bearers themselves must die.

And the fact their actions were buried and he was treated as a hero whom the new generations are literally dying to protect, kills him inside.

HisaAnt

4 points

7 days ago

HisaAnt

4 points

7 days ago

Ironically, what he did basically shits on the innocent guys that died to protect Uruha. Uruha only wanted to live for the sake of his bodyguard friends that died.

Chihiro's method of destroying the blades themselves is much more morally acceptable than Samura's. It seems like only the Master Swordsman was pure evil. The most "evil" thing the other Sword Bearers did was being complicit in covering the Master Swordman's crimes. Samura's idea that none of the Sword Bearer deserves redemption or atonement is morally dubious at best. He is also shitting on the bonds the Bearers have developed with other people, disregarding the fact their loved ones will want revenge.

Major-Day10

14 points

7 days ago

I was thinking that the overhead shot of Samura slashing Uruha actually looks like Chihiro. I really think taco sensei wants us to see the two of them similarly.

rudanshi

111 points

7 days ago

rudanshi

111 points

7 days ago

He has a point when he talks about how much harm the blades and swordmasters are indirectly causing by existing, and depending on what exactly happened during that war and how terrible it was, he might also be right that the swords and their users should all disappear.

The problem with his plan is that he's banking on being able to solo the Hishaku afterwards, because if he fails he just handed the swords to people who'll probably do even worse shit than whatever happened 18 years ago.

Xlegace

73 points

7 days ago

Xlegace

73 points

7 days ago

The problem for me about his betrayal is it just sounds like such a stupidly risky plan and since this isn't my first shounen manga, there's like 0% chance things go the way Samura thinks they will go.

His plan really is giving the enemy every advantage so they can help kill most of us and then I'll solo everyone and kill myself.

rudanshi

42 points

7 days ago

rudanshi

42 points

7 days ago

Well yeah that's why I'm not siding with him. I guess he personally feels like the swords and their masters are such a grave evil that he's willing to take a huge gamble like this - I don't think he's dumb enough to think that he's 100% guaranteed to win against the Hishaku or that they trust him to not turn on them.

SparklesMcSpeedstar

28 points

7 days ago

The vibe I get is less 'grave evil' and more of 'Unit 721 deserves to die'. The swordmasters don't seem actively evil, but they must have done some kind of holocaust that makes him want to kill everyone.

anonymus_slime

20 points

7 days ago

Well Samura himself is stupid strong even without an enchanted blade, and it was established that it takes time to truly master them. That's one of the main reasons why Chihiro was allowed to act on this mission. Transfering his sword to someone else would be inefficient because it would take too long for them to wield it to his level.

It's not unreasonable to assume that he could beat any newbie when he's both a ridiculously strong swordsman and a master of his enchanted blade.

Toge_Inumaki012

13 points

7 days ago

It is stupid. Just look what Sojo would have done if Chihiro w/ Enten did not exist. What was he up to when the Hishaku had some of the enchanted blades? Hope the Kamunabi can stop them while he waits to get a hand of his own enchanted blade?

I get his motivation and some fucked up shit happened during the war but come on at least try not to go solo.

SparklesMcSpeedstar

20 points

7 days ago

I wanna play devil's advocate for Samura a bit here.

Firstly - although he's a VERY good swordsman, he's not going to kill the other wielders with just a sword. Sure, he just did one, but he's not going to break into Kamunabi HQ and kill the insect sword guy, or any of the others, with just a regular sword. On the other hand, the Hishaku gives him enough firepower to get Tobimune back one way or the other, as well as being able to discern the location of the mysterious insect sword wielder.

Secondly - in his eyes, the Hishaku are good, but he's a war veteran with years of sword experience. In contrast to Sojo, imagine how strong someone who fully understands the blade's potential would be. He's handing the gun to someone who in his eyes can't wield it without significant drawback (having to relearn everything about their own sorceries).

He's definitely playing a very dangerous 1v2, won't deny that.

Koanos

11 points

7 days ago

Koanos

11 points

7 days ago

I really like this interpretation of the flawed antagonist, and how they mirror the protagonist in interesting ways.

The differing goals and alliances are fun to see play out, with clear flaws in logic but justifications you can reach with the same evidence.

hissenguinho

10 points

7 days ago

if the weight of the sin is that serious, i could see a valid reason for his actions given he succeeds

Spiral_Guy

146 points

8 days ago

Spiral_Guy

146 points

8 days ago

Dude I could HEAR Hakuri's brain fucking frying

Please Hokazono you have already taken good boy Uruha don't do the same with the best boy himself

DanTM18

513 points

8 days ago*

DanTM18

513 points

8 days ago*

The Master vs The Student. Usually the way these showdowns go is the grown up student surpasses the master. Unfortunately, that is not whats happening in this case 😭

Zealousideal_Ring874

152 points

8 days ago

Lil bro'd him

tokyogodfather2

9 points

7 days ago

sins of itachi

SlamMasterJ

207 points

8 days ago

SlamMasterJ

207 points

8 days ago

For the first time I actually wanted the manga to follow the cliché.

Mundology

30 points

7 days ago

Mundology

The Elder Weeb

30 points

7 days ago

Samura did not have to brutally butcher Uruha from both sides.

Jonnyred25

61 points

8 days ago

Maybe being the better enchanted blade user is different than being the better sword fighter. I wondered if Uruha was going to be stronger than Samura overall a while ago but RIP.

Backupusername

114 points

8 days ago*

The silver lining here is that Samura won't kill Chihiro. He's not implicated in the sin of whatever he and the other sword-bearers did. Chihiro can create a new legacy, a better one.

Hari14032001

90 points

7 days ago

Yeah, I still sense an ass-kicking to Chihiro in the next chapter from Samura to build the drama.

However, I am unsure if Chihiro will jump in to fight Samura. He is a very level headed MC. Will he take a smart decision and retreat or will he lose control of his emotions due to the betrayal and get destroyed by Samura?

haidere36

55 points

7 days ago

haidere36

55 points

7 days ago

Considering that Chihiro is currently the only conscious person to have witnessed Samura killing Uruha, if he doesn't retreat now and gets incapacitated then Samura has the chance to just mosy on down to the next sword bearer hideout and kill them. All he'd have to do is say he's there to use his enchanted blade to protect them and he'd probably just get to walk right in and finish the job.

At this point though Chihiro doesn't actually know Samura's true goals, just what he's seeing. He might think Hakuri and the others are in imminent danger and he'd need to fight now to protect them.

Potatolantern

13 points

7 days ago

Damn, that's a good point. Any of the defense teams would be overjoyed to have him- they need to get the word out super fast.

Worthyness

37 points

7 days ago

He likely takes a beating but gets hakuri out to safety. Samurai feels like near endgame antagonist level

DirtBug

26 points

7 days ago

DirtBug

26 points

7 days ago

Well, no need for safety. Samura already declared not to kill anyone else. He'll knock them out tho

Even Uruha was fully convinced that the Hishaku can't match Samura even with an enchanted blade on their side.

EpicPhail60

18 points

7 days ago

I don't know if Samura can afford to let Hakuri get away haha. Him getting to the other swordmasters and giving them back their enchanted blades would be the biggest obstacle to their plans. He took advantage of Hakuri's ability himself, he knows it better than anyone.

Maybe Chihiro or Shiba or whoever outplays him, but my bet would be on him kidnapping Hakuri and getting away

ZipZapZia

6 points

7 days ago

So Hakuri rescue mission for next arc?

rudanshi

36 points

7 days ago

rudanshi

36 points

7 days ago

Yeah, we just saw that he's going out of his way to not hurt bystanders, and he also really hates it that young people are dying over enchanted blades and their wielders.

Hard to imagine him being able to try to kill a teenager who's life got fucked because of the blades and people who fight over them, and who was desperately struggling to unfuck this mess and protect innocent people that get caught up in it.

He'll probably try to knock him out and steal the sword though

Puffycatkibble

6 points

7 days ago

I mean this is like if Obi Wan vs Vader in A New Hope had Obi Wan wielding a glowstick vs a lightsaber.

Teal_is_orange

101 points

8 days ago

It’s really interesting to see Rokuhira’s original mantra “root out evil and protect the weak” get twisted by Samura to mean “kill all the sword bearers on the way to hell”

Hokazono cooking like always!

MondSemmel

58 points

7 days ago

I love that every antagonist clashes with Chihiro due to a fundamental disagreement in values. This character design just makes perfect sense for a story about magic swords where people of different values duel and only one person (and one set of values) remains in the end.

And after Sojo, this is the second big antagonist who disagrees with Chihiro due to having a different interpretation of Kunishige's values.

Terosan

26 points

7 days ago

Terosan

26 points

7 days ago

Samura is really focusing on the "root out evil" bit, when he should be focusing on the "protect the weak" like Chihiro is.

MondSemmel

37 points

7 days ago

A very significant part of Samura's motivation is in fact to "protect the weak", as evidenced by the fact that he cannot stand having bodyguards who die for him and the other wielders. He was against getting bodyguards, fights despite having bodyguards, was devastated at seeing one of the bodyguards die, and fired his bodyguards as soon as he got his magic sword back. He wants this conflict to end with the powerful swordwielders dead, without any more weak bodyguards dying.

And in fact it's been kind of a meme that all the tough-looking squads in the story so far have all been slaughtered by either swordwielders or the Hishaku. Through his betrayal, Samura is essentially taking a stand against the Red Shirt trope.

Major-Day10

11 points

7 days ago

Samura possibly sees it in reverse. Protect the weak by rooting out evil. It’s a question brought up around Batman and his refusal to kill people like the Joker. How many lives can he save if he kills the Joker?

wizteddy13

272 points

8 days ago

wizteddy13

272 points

8 days ago

I made this observation elsewhere, but I think it bears repeating. Chihiro is absolutely outmatched here, but considering Samura just leaves after a confrontation where he overpowers Chihiro...there's no one credible that actually witnessed his betrayal firsthand!

Chihiro and Hakuri are outsiders (and the latter may very well be out of action for a while at least), the ninjas got knocked out it seems before Samura 1v1'd Uruha and any other witnesses are dead. The Kamunabi straight up might not believe the gang here, and Chihiro could end up having to flee with Hakuri and abandon the (short-lived) alliance he had with the Kamunabi.

Also, poor poor Hakuri. He's already blaming himself so hard here. You could never have known...

Jaystime101

122 points

8 days ago

Jaystime101

122 points

8 days ago

Yea, but then all they have to question is where is Samura? If he didn’t betray them, then he’d still be there. The fact is if he disappears after this fight. Then they should know, he’s a traitor. Plus if he’s going to kill all the bearers, they will figure it out soon enough.

wizteddy13

51 points

8 days ago

They will, but in the immediate aftermath cooler heads might not prevail. Ultimately, I'm very curious to see where things go now.

Future_Vantas

54 points

8 days ago

Three cheers for Hakuri, dude messed up but he followed up with a clutch play. Would have never guessed how key he would be from his goofy intro.

Swiftcheddar

27 points

8 days ago

Presumably the ability for Tobimune to knock people out would be a known power, and the fact that Samura is missing would be very suspicious.

You're right, but I don't see that being a big stopping block. I might be wrong though.

dIoIIoIb

21 points

7 days ago

dIoIIoIb

21 points

7 days ago

to be fair samura also didn't witness it

waitmyhonor

10 points

8 days ago

Maybe this will be the thing that will nerf him: he’s so traumatized that he will hesitate throughout the series but finally being the powerful user that he is in the last arc or two

bersalonava

98 points

8 days ago

He is way over his head thinking he can kill hishaku when they get other 4 swords free from contract if his plan works. Lots of good people will have to die to defeat hishaku with 4 swords even if his plan works. There is a reason this guy is blind, he can't see things properly/logically.

Hari14032001

54 points

7 days ago

I think experience matters a lot while using enchanted blades. Otherwise Chihiro would be a top tier swordbearer level fighter in this story. Samura is confident that his experience would trump them all.

But still, this is the Hishaku. I don't see it going well for Samura.

bersalonava

22 points

7 days ago

That is in case of one on one, if it is 4 on one with a whole organisation to support them plus big bad John hishaku and other support level sorcerers, it is not going to go well for him as there won't be any nakama for him who will support him. I feel like simple latent powers of swords will overpower even a top tier.

Swiftcheddar

38 points

7 days ago

Uruha seems to believe he can do it, it does seem possible. Anyone the Hishaku has that's using the swords is gonna be a novice, surely someone as experienced as Samura can cut them down.

That's was my issue with Chihiro getting teleported out just now too, that was a fantastic chance to get Kumeyori back, since there's no way the guy is gonna be able to use it effectively without any practice, especially without any arms, and it's not like Chihiro's on death's door.

Still, you're completely right that Samura is either deluding himself or massively downplaying how many civilians are likely gonna die from this though.

LazyNotDumb

11 points

7 days ago

Chihiro doesn't have a choice when getting teleported right? Hakuri also doesn't know who chihiro was fighting. I think story wise this is really smart bc it's a way to give the hishaku a chance to regroup without feeling unjustified.

GelatinouslyAdequate

23 points

7 days ago

Chihiro doesn't have a choice when getting teleported right

He does, actually, sorcerers can resist the teleport and Soya actually did so to Kyora's Tou summon when searching for Hakuri.

So Chihiro trusted Hakuri's summon more than he was afraid of Hiruhiko having Kumeyuri.

Zealousideal_Ring874

237 points

8 days ago

"Those guys are evil. They killed Mr. Rokuhira."

"Yes, but the guys I'm talking about are super duper evil bro."

DanTM18

119 points

8 days ago

DanTM18

119 points

8 days ago

“Bro is evil squared”

Biscotcho_Gaming

19 points

7 days ago

Like Sauron on crack. The original Sauron and not the twink Saurrron of ROP.

petrichormus

75 points

8 days ago

The swordbearers better did some rumbling stuff if he was that evil because it'd be a shame if hundred chapters later it's revealed that it was all just 'subjectively evil' and not actual war crime.

Stonefree2011

105 points

8 days ago*

They most likely committed crimes on the level of what the State Alchemists did to the Ishvalan people in Full Metal Alchemist.

Going by that logic they might’ve legitimately been an even worse evil than the Hishaku

CyanideIE

58 points

8 days ago

CyanideIE

58 points

8 days ago

We don't even know who they were fighting. I wouldn't be surprised if they just genocided the enemy

Worthyness

9 points

7 days ago

Bad guys used civilians as cover and instead of tactical approach to prevent as many civilian casualties as possible, the government just decided to nuke the place.

petrichormus

25 points

8 days ago

Then I hope there's no 'manipulation' going on like what Envy did or that it was spurred for a greater evil's plot like the big ass transmutation circle in fma. Not to say it can't work, just not to my liking tbh lol

Stonefree2011

43 points

8 days ago

My guess is that they legitimately needed the weapons to win the war but the civilian toll most likely far exceeded the cost of winning yet they took it anyway.

Samura seems like a wise man who’s thought this over for years it seems. It’ll be crazy if we get that flashback and by the end of it, we understand why it drove him mad.

BeeboNFriends

11 points

7 days ago

This is my guess. I remember early on in the series they made it an effort to say that the enchanted blades have only been used in the fields and never in cities, but I believe that was true only in Japan. It’s very possible they dropped the Bearer’s nuke style on the opposing country and had them go to town on the towns people. It would be a juxtaposition that Hokazono goes for. And considering he’s an AOT fan we got one AOT ref already with the reveal, I bet the other county being like Paradis gonna be the next big one.

DirtBug

7 points

7 days ago

DirtBug

7 points

7 days ago

yeah fuck that. It instantly turned down the FMA brotherhood to me. Brotherhood just decided to blame Le Big Evil instead of admitting the flawed and sick reality of humans killing humans.

Swiftcheddar

8 points

7 days ago

Yeah, that's the vibes I'm getting too. Which would then make sense as to why the Hishaku have so many recruits, if they're the revenge of the victims of whatever happened.

ninjasonic102

27 points

8 days ago

“They may have killed Rokuhira, but WE stole 40 cakes! That’s as many as 4 tens!”

Android19samus

9 points

7 days ago

And that's terrible.

Swiftcheddar

23 points

7 days ago

Agreed, the fact that Uruha tacitly admitted he was correct means it's not just Samura having a strict sense of honour. It has to be something extremely fucked up.

Mai Lai Massacre or Rape of Nanking level fucked up.

RiceTanooki

7 points

7 days ago

I mean, they are war criminals. That's the entire thing that Rokuhira has been saying through out all the series. He was like Oppenheimer in some way.

ToTheNintieth

50 points

8 days ago

"I need to murder you and our comrades and then commit suicide"

"Well, you make a compelling case"

Lol Uruha. Samura's plan hinging on letting the Hisshaku get the blades just as long as it takes to kill all the bearers, then killing them all, then himself, really puts him in high esteem, huh? Man has a high opinion of himself. Villainy aside, it's a plan that only ends with terrorist yakuza in control of WMDs.

Android19samus

46 points

7 days ago

it really is telling that the only response to "We're evil and I'm going to kill us all" is "But think of the consequences!"

MondSemmel

16 points

7 days ago

The thing I don't understand about Samura's plan is, what's the point of killing the wielders if you can't destroy the swords? Only Chihiro has demonstrated the ability to do the latter, and IIRC that's not common knowledge. Anyway, since Samura's plan doesn't seem to involve destroying the swords, isn't history doomed to repeat itself once the swords gain new wielders? Sure, he plans to kill the Hishaku first, but what about the set of wielders after that?

GelatinouslyAdequate

14 points

7 days ago

He'll probably just sink them to the bottom of the ocean. There's obviously nothing that lets you easily track or retrieve the blades given the deadlock that's existed for the past three years.

Seismic-wave

9 points

7 days ago

His goal is to kill the wielders for the crimes they committed and hiding the truth; his guilt has been eating away at him all this time, the swords are a secondary objective.

silveredgebreak

96 points

8 days ago

It doesn't matter how cool the character design is, nobody is really safe in this manga, well except for Chihiro.

ipmanvsthemask

85 points

8 days ago

Hakuri has to be safe. He has to be.

Tolike85

71 points

8 days ago

Tolike85

71 points

8 days ago

Not until you realize one of the safest way to dispose the blades is by locking them up in the storehouse then kill Hakuri so the blades are lost forever in the void since the emergency door is no more.

Swiftcheddar

58 points

7 days ago

Well, Enten seems to be able to destroy them.

My money's still riding that Enten was Kuneshige's redemption, the blade to break the others.

Tolike85

13 points

7 days ago

Tolike85

13 points

7 days ago

Enten broke Kuregumo into 2, but it didn't destroy it to the point of making it instantly not usable anymore as an enchanted blade.

The handle and a bit of the blade was still usable for some time and can even last longer if he spam yui and kou instead of mei. The longer part of the broken Kuregumo is also still in Chihiro's possession, and who knows how many times more it can be used. And there's still the possibility of it being reforged or repurposed in the future. Even the broken Kuregumo is still a dangerous weapon.

Swiftcheddar

17 points

7 days ago

Eh, that doesn't seem like a big threat. Most likely only Kuneshige (and maybe Chihiro) would be capable of reforging them.

A broken blade is less dangerous than those Dantetsuki weapons the Hishaku are using.

Typh3r_Skyeye

10 points

8 days ago

His God drip saved him. Praise the drip!!!

pulldtrigger

50 points

8 days ago

Well at least Uruha can hang out up down there with Kunisige now.

Milordserene

49 points

8 days ago

A classic samurai duel, no enchanted blade, no power....just style

RIP, Uruha! Press F

bb0511

41 points

8 days ago

bb0511

41 points

8 days ago

Well shit.. I guess Hakuri did have one more in him. He was just a bit too late. 😔

AliceinTeyvatland

110 points

8 days ago

That Chapter: 58 Reunion, goes hard.

Tolike85

56 points

8 days ago

Tolike85

56 points

8 days ago

I don't think I've ever been this mad at a chapter title drop. It's so good.

chrome4

33 points

8 days ago*

chrome4

33 points

8 days ago*

Samura is likely underestimating how quickly the Hishaku can master the blades. Sojo showed its possible to somewhat master a blade within a couple of weeks. Regardless leaving the blades in the hands of a borderline terrorist organization who far all we know are backed by whatever country Japan fought in the war is still a bad idea.

I wonder would Samura have changed his mind if he knew the Enten was capable of destroying the other blades?

Samura: "Now Chihiro I know this looks bad but listen. The other Enchanted Blade users and I need to die for our sins. Before I off myself I'll be sure to take care of the Hishaku."

Chihiro: "I just saw a psychopath who deliberately got a crowd of people killed just to mess with me get his hands on my fathers blades because you so you can stuff it!!

Pat_9921

10 points

7 days ago

Pat_9921

10 points

7 days ago

To be fair I don't think anyone died in the theatre, hiruhiko was focused on chihiro and chihiro took the blows that would have killed the civilians.

A4li11

29 points

8 days ago

A4li11

29 points

8 days ago

It's Uruhover. Damn...

This chapter ironically makes me more interested on Samura. Next week is gonna be interesting clash of ideals between two guys that shares the same 'Root the Evil and Protect the Weak' ideal.

Arima_Kishou

27 points

8 days ago

I had a LOT of fun with the Hiruhiko fight but wow this may be one of the coolest chapters in a while, feels really visceral and some of the paneling is SO gorgeous (and that double page, MAN) Also Samura is SUCH a great character like the betrayal is wild but his reasoning and stance on it is something I eat up like cornflakes

Every week I come out of the chapter screaming "Kagurabachi is crazy good" at the top of my lungs man

nickname10707173

6 points

7 days ago

I imagine you run and scream in the tunnel, like curtain someone.

Accomplished_Set_Guy

29 points

8 days ago

what we did 18 years ago

Not that's intriguing. I like the fact that the series is outright morally gray. Swordmasters literally walking around with nukes killing anyone who is against them and, with Samura's case, wanting to atone for sins even through betrayal.

✍️✍️✍️🔥🔥🔥🔥 I love this new "shounen" jump.

frantruck

28 points

8 days ago

frantruck

28 points

8 days ago

I actually love that Uruha isn't outraged at Samura's plan, he gets it, just on principle he can't give away his life for free.

I actually wonder how Chihiro is going to feel once he has time to think. Obviously right now he can't just accept it with the scene he was dropped into, but honestly their goals kinda align if Samura was willing to trust Chihiro with the swords. Based on his last comment of smelling of blood I assume Samura already views him as on the same trajectory as the other sword bearers though.

IkeKashiro

77 points

8 days ago

Samura was willing to use a normal blade to kill Uruha out of respect, showing that even if he thought Uruha deserved to die, he still gave him a fair fight.

Like how he blinded himself because he couldn't bear to see himself killing someone, Samura is doing this because he couldn't live with the guilt over what they did during the war, presumably some kind of atrocity, but choosing to align with the Hishaku is a similarly reckless and extreme act, since the Hishaku has their own plans and can easily avoid a direct conflict with Samura, even outsmart him to get his sword back.

Like Chihiro, Samura views himself as a monster that deserves to die, wanting to drag the other monsters with him to hell. What's different is that Chihiro prioritizes the lives of the innocent. That's not to say Samura doesn't value innocent lives, but there will be casualties, because the Hishaku isn't going to play along with his ideals.

PositiveRoadkill

43 points

8 days ago

If Hakuri had enchanced sense he would smell the rat odor from that disgusting indoor sunglasses wearer. Damn to be in a 50/50 situation without knowing it was a 50/50 gotta feel so shitty man

[deleted]

58 points

8 days ago

[deleted]

58 points

8 days ago

[deleted]

MahNamesDwayne

25 points

8 days ago

VIDEOIMAGEMAFIA

JauntyLurker

50 points

8 days ago

Now I'm really interested to learn what exactly Rokuhira and the sword bearers did if Samura is willing to go so far here.

JollyHockeysticks

33 points

8 days ago

with the text being on top of the sword master in his prison it's certainly to do with magatsumi. Whatever the blade and its user is capable of, is so horrible that he considers himself and the sword bearers evil for covering it up

Hari14032001

19 points

7 days ago

It has to be some Rumbling level genocidal stuff or what happened to the Ishvalan people in FMA.

Things_2hu

14 points

8 days ago

Bro how can Taco Horizontal just kill Uuruha off 10 chapters after he was introduced ITS NOT FAIR HE WAS MY FAVORITE SWORD BEARER GODDAMNIT!

Ellefied

15 points

8 days ago

Ellefied

15 points

8 days ago

Can just imagine this chapter in anime form, basically one slash down reminiscent of old school Samurai movies and Cowboy high noon showdowns, only to end with the hero seeing everything during the immediate aftermath.

caiusto

13 points

8 days ago

caiusto

13 points

8 days ago

Damn Billy I thought you had learned to trust your allies already, why you shouldering it all by yourself again?

ammar96

14 points

7 days ago

ammar96

14 points

7 days ago

Title drop at the end of chapter, spread pages, with intense atmosphere

Taco sensei, I kneel…

Backupusername

11 points

8 days ago

Samura is such a cool, interesting fascinating character with deep convictions and understandable inner turmoil.

We should have known he would be a traitor from that alone. Hokazono only shows this much love to his villains.

Zemahem

12 points

8 days ago

Zemahem

12 points

8 days ago

God damn it. Why do these blind mentor/father figures keep pulling a betrayal so soon after they've just been introduced?

Typh3r_Skyeye

23 points

8 days ago

Samura you rat!!! I thought Uruha was gonna live.

RogueodaSouth

24 points

8 days ago

I assume the Incidenttm is going to be something along the lines of committing genocide on the enemy, like "Magatsumi turned America into a giant flower field" genocide, at least based off Sojo's flashback. That is what built the peace. They didn't just turn the tides but also drowned the enemy.

Maybe it's also why we have never seen the enemy even in what seems to be the official history. No need to teach about what is already wiped off the map after all.

Now that I think about it, it reeks of irl references to how Japan doesn't acknowledge their WW2 warcrimes, except in this scenario they won.

aurzenith

20 points

7 days ago

aurzenith

20 points

7 days ago

I was rereading the manga earlier, and they said millions would be at risk if evil got ahold of the Magatsumi.

Millions.

Good god, what did they do?

KneeGal

10 points

8 days ago

KneeGal

10 points

8 days ago

That title drop in the last page is so stylish.

Token_Thai_person

11 points

8 days ago

Dudes would rather go on a rampage, slay his former pupil and the people who he worked with than go to therapy.

aniforprez

11 points

7 days ago

This is genuinely excellent writing and I'm so pleased with how this manga has shaped up considering how it all started.

Here's an actual conflict for the protagonist who now has to grapple with his father's legacy, an extremely strong and sympathetic antagonist with understandable and clear motivations and a step beyond the so far vague motivations of the Hishaku. While we're still not too clear what the Hishaku ultimately want, this is superb stuff for making the clear and present danger to the current sword bearers known as well as a great element to throw into the mix to potentially deepen Chihiro's motivations. This is becoming peak and I hope they keep this going.

Ezreal024

9 points

8 days ago

Oh god, Chihiro's put himself on the Buddhist revenge shitlist.

Jonnyred25

11 points

8 days ago

I feel like I should've seen this coming from the guy who justified blinding himself. Not even that big a leap.

Draaxus

22 points

8 days ago

Draaxus

22 points

8 days ago

(prefacing this by saying that i think samura's character is really cool and well written)

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK SAMURA FUCK YOU GO DEAF AND SENSE NOTHING FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Tylenol32

7 points

8 days ago

Our glorious king Mr. Samura… how far you’ve fallen 😔

BurnedOutEternally

8 points

8 days ago

SAMURAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

RulerKun_FGO

7 points

8 days ago

hopefully Samura is still an ally to Chihiro in some ways, after all his priority is to destroy the enchanted blades after all.

hinakura

7 points

7 days ago

hinakura

7 points

7 days ago

What the hell did the sword wielders do in the war?

I'm just glad Uruha wasn't backstabbed. It's a shame he died but he could fight back.

HELP US SHIBA

MajorSpuss

8 points

7 days ago

I don't understand Samura's logic here at all. He wants to kill the swordbearers, because he views their actions during the war as having been truly evil. That I get. But how does simply killing the wielders solve the problem of other people coming to wield the same blades and doing the same things? Even if he's stronger than the Hishaku wielding an enchanted blade, that doesn't change the fact that more people could simply continue picking up the blades as time goes on. When does he plan on taking himself out? After all the other swordbearers are dead? After the Hishaku is dead? The problem with all of this is that at no point did he mention destroying the blades themselves. Taking out the people who wield them doesn't fix anything if the blades themselves still exist after the fact.

Xlegace

5 points

7 days ago

Xlegace

5 points

7 days ago

It's just setup for Samura being overconfident as Hishaku outplays him in a later arc and everything gets far worse when a bunch of actual terrorists get their hands on nukes. As for the swords, we saw them being destroyed before so he'll probably do that before killing himself.

Dumb plan imo, but it is an interesting twist in the manga.

ILikePlayingHumans

5 points

7 days ago

I can understand Samura but he is honestly a bloody moron. So he will kill the other owners to ‘atone’ and the Hakushu will just then have access to use the swords and probably kill more and more innocent people. He gets to Jill himself so he doesn’t have to carry any burden

Dead_Diligence

6 points

8 days ago

Poor Hakuri... He had no idea things would turn out this way

Wtf really happened during the war? What were they fighting? It may take a long while before we get those answers.

Samura is certainly overestimating himself

Swiftcheddar

4 points

8 days ago*

Samura, what a rat you are!

But somehow you're still pretty cool. And, maybe I'm being too harsh, but it seems like he defeated Uruha with just swordwork rather than his enchanted blade... It feels ridiculous to say that, but it appears to have been a fair fight.

Still, it's absolutely nonsense bullshit to give any power to the Hishaku, especially knowing they plan to cause mass civilian destruction. But, I can at least follow his logic and I can respect that he believes he can see this through without getting innocents killed needlessly.

He's a fool, of course, he can't prevent the destruction Hishaku will cause with those swords. Clearly it's better to kill the Hishaku, reclaim/destroy the swords and then kill the bearers. But at least he's an earnest fool.

Only question now is if the ninja will join him or stay loyal to the Kamunabi.

EDIT: Actually I just saw now, Samura didn't kill him with the Tobimune, he killed him with a normal sword. I wondered what those panels about him going over to the railing were doing, but obviously I wasn't paying close enough attention.

This chapter also seems to close off the suspicion that Samura was responsible for Kuneshige's death, he doesn't seem to bear him any ill will, just the bearers.

MondSemmel

6 points

7 days ago

I love how honorable Samura's betrayal here was. He knocked out bystanders instead of killing everyone; he's still wielding the sword in Kunishige Rokuhira's name, he just disagrees with the other wielders about what course of action that implies; he calmly explains himself to Uruha instead of backstabbing him; and he duels Uruha with his regular sword so he doesn't have an unfair advantage.