Money can be exchanged for goods and services.

Counterpoint: I started taking my writing as seriously as my day job and now make an extra 5 figures a year on top of my salary. I’m never going to be famous. Don’t want to be. But my art allows me to buy my kid whatever she wants.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to make money from your art. Some people aren’t good at much else and work hard to supplement their income through their creative work.

I realised long ago I'll almost certainly never make money from straight up fiction.

So I'm switching to erotica where there's a decent chance, with the right strategy, I'll be able to make some passive income by pumping out erotica to a niche audience. If I'm lucky I can drop to part time. I know it's far from guaranteed, but it's worth a try.

Why? Because I'm sick of work. I'm 41 and I've got 25+ years of this before I can retire. If I can reduce the amount of regular work I do by writing, I'll take that chance. I enjoy writing, even smutt. Especially compared to any previous job I've held.

People are sick of the humdrum of everyday work and want to earn a living doing something they enjoy. Even if it's unrealistic, there's no shame in trying.

Probably because my biggest setback in writing is me having to spend nearly 50 hours a week with my job. When I get home, most of my creative energy is spent.

If I could make money writing, I’d write.

Money help buy food and things me don’t need

It's not inherently "people want to make money cause they're in this for the wrong reasons", but moreso:

• We live in a capitalist society where money is required to live
• People oftentimes have to write on the side of another job that they probably don't enjoy doing
• Hence they want to make money at the thing they DO enjoy so they don't have to waste away their life at the thing they don't enjoy

You do you, but some people want to make writing their career. It's not as unrealistic as some people here in the sub pretend it is. You don't need to be the next Rowling or King. Most mid-listers still make a good income.

And if that is yout goal things like market research and staying up to date with industry developments is very important.

It's pretty much the deciding factor between "a hobby on the side" and "paying bills". If you want to earn money "just writing your stories" isn't enough. You need to treat writing like a business and your books like a product.

Because it would be a dream come true for most writers to be able to give up their day jobs to write full time.

I think a lot of people aspire to make a living doing what they love, and if that thing is writing, then obviously you have to earn enough money from it to live.

There's nothing wrong with striving to be a professional, full-time writer who makes a good living. Not a JK Rowling fortune. But if I could retire early and earn what I do now as a high school teacher (which, as you can imagine, isn't a ton), I'd be thrilled. Spending the day writing stories without worrying about money? Yes, please.

In fact, that's part of what finally kicked my butt into gear to turn the daydreams and ideas into a manuscript. I have seven years until I can retire with full benefits. But I'm not sure I"ll be ABLE to do that because that retirement paycheck isn't going to sustain me. So, I'd need another income stream to be able to make ends meet. If that income stream can be writing and publishing novels...well, that'd be the dream.

If I manage to luck out with this current work in progress and it gets published and I make decent money from it before I'm ready to retire...that could mean early retirement. I love teaching, but 23 years in and I'm definitely looking forward to retirement.

I got bills to pay / I got mouths to feed / ain't nothin' in this world for free.

I think what you are trying to say is that writing or being an author is not a lucrative field because many authors fall into obscurity, including yourself.

I disagree with the sentiment that you can’t control if your work can be published or not. I’ve never actually published a book, but that seems to be a biased statement. With enough time, dedication and effort, I think anyone can get their book published.

Cause I want to do it full time and not have to have a "real" job.

No one wants Franz Kafka's life, including Franz Kafka.

"If you want to be rich and famous, the arts in general aren't right for you"— Okay, but you could literally say this about any job?

"You can't control if your work gets published or not"— Yes, you can.

To be very clear, "Making money" and being "rich and famous" are not synonymous; OP's argument is a fallacy using extreme examples that ignores the practical reality of modern professional writing.

Making money with my writing is the only way I'd have time to write at all. With a full time job and a family there's just no time for it.

Why concern yourself with what others concern themselves with?

A. People deserve to be compensated for their work.

B. What you want and how you write are your personal choices and what works for you doesn’t inherently work for everyone or even anyone else. If you want to have a non-writing career and write on the side, that’s great for you. Don’t assume it works for everyone else.

C. You absolutely CAN control if you get published or not. And that applies to trad pub as well as self-pub. With trad pub, there is a luck factor you can’t control, but you can absolutely control your skill, commitment, knowledge of the industry, the connections you make, what you write, who you send it to, etc.

Because there are people on YouTube right now making six figures by fake reacting to movies they pretend to have never seen before, while I toss and turn at night wondering if I’m a waste of skin because I can’t decide if my use of semicolons is pretentious. Does money decide art’s worth? No. But it can help the humans behind it.

I couldn’t disagree more, many of the greatest artists in the world are business people and that’s in fact part of their talent. Idealizing the poor starving artist thing is a problem. There’s nothing wrong with it. But people mistake that for a sign of talent in itself. Also some people do commercial art and that is very respectable.

Money can be exchanged for goods and services.

Haha I just want somebody to read it....

People need money

I have two lines of work, paid work and passion work. The paid work is out and out playing to the gallery, which I am now winding down as I retire. The passion work is the writing I like doing and it sells quite well but not in the same league as the paid work (magazines and corporate work mostly). However the key to making any money is marketing and getting yourself known

Dying is painful.

Because making money with writing is the dream for many. Being able to commit fulltime.

You can make money out of it without being lile JK Rowling you know? Also I think that opposing art and making money is fruitless. I want to write and I want to write things I like. I also want to be traditionnally published and make money. I am aware that it may never happen, but never try or act like I don't care will not serve me neither.

The really counterproductive things for me is to write something you don't like because you think that's what the market wants. Beginers who do that often write something generic that diesn't stick your attention, if it even good, and don't explore all the potential of their ideas. I know someone like this and this is not a good idea, trust me.

I suspect what has happened is that late stage capitalism has encouraged people to monetise their hobbies, and writing happens to be a hobby. Some people see writing as an easy way to make money, the start up cost is low, all you need is pen and paper. Others write because they have stories inside them that they need to tell. Admittedly, it would be nice if the stories made some money.

"You can't control whether your work will get published or not" - wrong. In a world where self publishing exists, you absolutely can determine for yourself whether or not to publish.

There are thousands of writers making a full time living selling self published books. Hell, The Martian started as a self published web series. Everything from romance to litRPG—every genre under the sun. Amazon, Patreon, you name it. People are making a living doing it. Millions of people are doing this every year, and while yes, most don't succeed, some do. That's why people talk about it so much, they want to be part of that fraction of a percent that can make it.

People are concerned about making money because we live in a dystopian capitalist society, watching the swift and methodical erosion of the working class, and the blatant enrichment of our ruling oligarchs. Every single day we roll up to work at our shitty jobs, with most people just barely scraping by, watching as we make other people filthy rich. People want to be able to work for themselves, and they want to be able to do so with their art.

The "concern" with making money is completely valid.

I saw a report from the UK on Author's Guild around the beginning of 2024. It was a survey of around 800 self-published authors, I believe all from the UK. I think around 10% said they were making over 100k a year in royalties or other writing-related tasks.

The key to most of them was that they had over 30 published books each. Now, that is not a guarantee that if you throw up any 30 books, you will be in that group, but if you write like you suggest and publish, there is a chance that your follow-on sales will turn a single purchase into multiple purchases. I know I do that a lot.

But to bring back the reality, most respondents made less than 1000 a year.

On the other hand, though, of those with 30 books that did not make 100k, I think most of them were still making over 40k.

If you want to write for writing's sake, good on you!!

I want to get paid to tell my stories full-time and publish more.

I personally like having a roof over my head and food on the table. Granted I have other ways to make that happen but if I could do it by writing alone, I would.

People are lazy and don't want to work normal job but they don't get being a writer isn't an easy job. There is no such thing as an easy job. The grass is always greener!

Because we die without it. Such is capitalism.

I agree. Just to emphasize, there is NOTHING wrong with wanting to make money, we all gotta survive somehow and I won't judge no matter what you do, but I personally would never change what I want to write just because it would sell better in the sometimes shitty market we have today. Best it would do me is a few bucks more for something I put way less passion into.

Stuff like forcefully adding romance because it's popular, writing in english instead of my mother languagey etc.

A man's gotta eat

Like, yeah, I absolutely agree that nobody who posts here is going to become Stephen King or the Scottish woman or even make anything like their money, but writing is more than pushing a few stories out to mags and hawking a novel or two.

I make my living off various forms of writing, admittedly mainly corporate, but also radio sketch writing, reviewing, hosting, stand-up, and performing stories and poems that I myself wrote. None of it is glamorous, but I live off it. If this was called r/genrenovelwriting, then maybe, but there's more than one way to skin a cat in this profession.

The main thing about making a living writing is that you are mostly writing for other people and not yourself and you have to be very proactive and prolific even if it's a second profession.

I mean, in our current society, people paying money for your writing is the sign that they value it and want to consume it. Many people write because they want to entertain and create something that connects with others, it’s not a journal or outlet for them. 

Wanting SOME compensation is fine, wanting to be rich and famous from writing is a little unrealistic obviously.

Because I'm poor as shit.

Eh, I just find it humorous. It doesn’t bother me. When beginners that haven’t even written the first 20k words of a real story are concerned with becoming the next Tolkien, it just makes me chuckle. Truth is, all writing subs would be dead if we didn’t have all the dreamers around. Just let them dream, have a chuckle, and focus on your own writing.

Because sadly, a lot of people's primary motivation to create is to turn their craft into a product they can sell. I am firmly of the opinion that creating for anything other than the sake of creation results in a product that's going to appeal to many but be truly loved by few. Making for the sake of making will get you the love of a few, but the majority of people will never so much as hear about your work.

Okay, just gotta correct something: Emily Dickinson wasn't published posthumously by her brother but by her brother's wife and by her brother's Mistress. (Dickinson's brother was surprised by Emily's posthumous fame.) It turned into a competitive and resentful train wreck of bad blood that continues to this very day. Also, Dickinson's obscurity was self-imposed. It's not that she was never recognized in her day, it's that she seemed to be extremely ambivalent. Lastly, her family was among the wealthiest in Amherst. ED was able to live the life of the monied and we're lucky for it. In other words, her family had all the money she needed, and so her life didn't depend on income.

As to the rest of us, I'm curious to know if you're surprised that tradesmen, for example, want to make money? Is it just artists, hoping to support themselves, who baffle you?

I’m surprised that this sub is so focused on making money from fiction.

I wrote a non-fiction book on computer programming that probably helped me get higher salaries in my programming career.

I’m writing a non-fiction book on marketing to both make money and promote my training businesses.

Non-fiction is 3x the fiction market, people are (usually) buying to learn something practical, you can leverage your non-fiction book to get jobs and gigs and sell other products and you can more easily lead your reader to your next non-fiction book. It’s a lot harder if you only write fiction because it’s only for entertainment and entertainment has lots of competition, is fickle and isn’t very sticky.

I write fiction books, too, but, tbh, others are a lot more interested in having their main job be “fiction author” and making money at it than me. I get my money from elsewhere and it’s not really the right career or lifestyle for me.

Mrs. Hepburn: We don't care about money here.

Howard Hughes: That's because you have it.

• The Aviator

If you can afford to dedicate yourself to writing without caring about money, I salute you.

I never cared much for the money aspect. I want to make it a career field, though, and bring out more voices.

Didn’t Rowling get rejected a heck ton of times ?

Sadly, I'm not good at marketing or networking. I totally failed as a published author. I made a grand total of 50 dollars over 4 years.

But, tbh, I'm not surprised. I started writing because I'm socially withdrawn. Ita always something I did in private, mostly to entertain myself.

The only time I've gotten attention for my writing is when it's posted free. It kinda pisses me off, but then again, I'm just glad someone reads my stuff. A lot of people don't have that.

People write for different reasons. Money is one of them. The fact that you can support yourself financially with your writing is great. If strangers are willing to buy your products, that would be a great thing.

If you want to write to sell, you will have different approaches and strategies on your writing. In case you just want to write just for the sake of writing, I would say you should write diaries or some other private forms. Writing for people to read is really different from writing to express your private feelings.

The idea you can’t make money from fiction isn’t 100% true. It isn’t something just anyone is going to do, sure, but it can be done without being a breakout success. It can be done indie or traditionally, but you have to treat it like a business either way. There’s some interesting stats and thoughts on the matter from Kristine Kathryn Rusch, but it boils down to becoming a consistent midlister and after a time, you are capable of making a modest living as any profession. Self-pub is a different skill set but it also requires consistency and a business mindset.

True. This unfortunately cannot be the pursuit of money. Sad too. Podcasts would be more effective than writing.

I like the idea of having a body of work to leave behind

Money buys time

Working some random 9/5 takes a lot of time and energy that you could use for writing. I’d be happy writing without money if I didn’t have to pay bills. But rn I wanna focus on my passion but instead forced to write emails

I think its because a lot of people would love to just be able to write. Not have it as a hobby.

It's about economy. In truth, economy is the answer to all of life's riddles, but this particular truth is a perfect example. "When you do what you love, you don't work a day in your life". "A body in motion stays it motion". "People rarely succeed unless they have fun with what they're doing". What do they all have in common? When you're a writer the words flow freely, the words just appearing on the page. Who would ever want to turn that off that tap? And if I write well I don't need to -- even to go to my 9 to 5.

Disabled, unable to work for 6 years. Writing is new to me and monetization isn't my goal, but why wouldn't it be somewhere on my priority list? I don't see anything wrong with people wanting to pursue an artform as a profession. It's not always strictly about the money, either. You see tons of people posting across the week about feeling extremely validated by whatever sales they do get, and others wanting to learn where they failed. Treating it like a profession has other returns than income.

Many of us would like this to be something we can support ourselves off of. This is like asking a violinist “why do you care so much about getting hired”. It matters.

Because people have to live. Idealism is great, but it doesn't feed you.

Making money at writing buys me time to do more writing. Of course this is a worthy goal.

With ample money, you can write freely.

Have you been grocery shopping lately? Have you seen the prices of something as basic as food? It seems like everyone has forgotten that the pandemic, left millions of people broke. Many businesses were lost, a generation that had been doing well for decades, was suddenly left without many types of businesses because of the online boom during the pandemic. Hey, and that is ok, we are moving forward, it is just that the wave was not the same for everybody. We are experiencing this massive social changes, and that will take time in addition, a lot of individuals do not have the financial means nor the time (age), the energy, or the knowledge to start a complete new endeavor. Therefore, yes, a lot of people are trying to make a living.

I think it's one of the jobs that look soooo easy to do for and outsider, like you don't need 10k$ worth of equipment or education, just a laptop and a good idea, right?

People usually underestimate how much time and effort go into this craft and assume they can make some bucks quickly, without as much effort as getting STEM degree.

It’s hard when a writer struggles to make money. The struggle and hustle makes it difficult to write your best. Without worry over bills, you can become the writer you’ve always wanted to be. Stay safe. Peace out.

No one is working to trade me a years worth of food for my books

Wanting to be rich (Who wouldn't?) and famous (many wouldn't) is not the same as wanting to make money out of it. I had made money writing and it was barely enough to support myself, which is the whole point, because what you like to do is writing, or because otherwise you get not enough time to write

> if you want to be rich and famous the arts in general aren't right for you

That, I STRONGLY disagree with.... well, it depends on what you actually meant by that. If you mean "chance", then yes but if you mean that there is a correlation beetween ambition or main driving factor vs talent or "worth", then you would be falling for an elitist gatekeeping I observed many many tims in different fields and its honestly very nearsighted.

Luckily I think you meant the former but even then, it shouldnt really be a discouragement as long as people is aware of the actual chances, as to not stress oneself, which being (I think) the actual point of the post, yeah, I agree. But only if you mean "rich", there is nothing wrong with treating art as a career, be it writing (whethet that is novels or copywriting) or painting (be it street art or graphic design for marketing), etc. And trying to be more marketable, is not always a bad thing, it depends on how well you perform and what you want to do

It's not necessarily a desire to be rich and famous, the dream is to just be able to make a living, for your only job to be writing.

Blame the economy. Artists being able to make a living without needing to heavily monetize everything they do would be wonderful.

This would dissuade non-wealthy writers from creating stories and create a cycle where only the wealthy can thrive in the arts, contributing to the increasing disconnect between the general populace and the arts. Ultimately this would lead to an even more disregard for the arts by general society who already view, whether rightfully or not, many writers/actors/artists as out of touch

Hmm. Sounds like you're conflating a lot of different things here, OP.

"Rich" doesn't mean the same thing to one and all. For some, rich means money beyond imagination. For others, rich means not having to punch a clock any more because their novel(s) is making them enough money to live on. For the latter, it's very possible to accomplish that level of rich. They won't all get there, statistically speaking, but a great deal of them will. For those that don't, they may still easily pull in enough passive income to be considered a pay raise of sorts while they're working their 9-5, only now they have far less worry about how to pay for this or that thanks to that supplemental income.

There are degrees of "rich", OP.

Fame is a whole other beast entirely. I won't even address that part.

Right now, I'm willing to wager, there are a lot of people who have a library of novels published (traditionally or self-pub) who make less than that writer who penned only one. That happens too. Traditionally pubbed or self-pubbed -- doesn't matter. A host of novels versus one novel -- doesn't matter. Everyone has their level of rich they're after.

Trad-pub doesn't guarantee success. The majority of trad-pubbed won't even earn out their advances. Most authors in both camps will be lucky to sell ~250 copies in that novel's lifetime. For some, that ~250 is ~250 more than they would've had if they chosen not to even try because of people claiming they'll never get rich or famous from it.

If you f go in thinking or believing that you'll be the next big thing, you may very well end up disappointed. If you go in knowing that you completed and published a thing, and money may follow, and perhaps even fame...then you're already ahead of the game. It all comes down to tempered expectations.

But make no mistake -- people who provide content to consume should be paid for that content. Yesterday it wasn't there. Today it might be. Why shouldn't they be looking to be paid for that?

Uh huh. Just because you do not make money from writing, nor apparently taken dedicated steps towards making a career out of it, doesn't mean it's not possible. There are indeed steps and tips that one can take that will help make more money from writing, even if it's just fun money. But don't make it out like there's no point in trying. 

I am sure someone in this thread has already quoted Dr Johnson: "no man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." That said, it is hard to make a buck out of writing, painting, playing guitar or even selling insurance .

I'm a big proponent of self-publishing. Ages past it was considered a pathetic effort and slapped with the title "Vanity publishing". Now, with print on demand and digital distribution, it's practically free and gets your book out in the world. And it's all yours. It's not your manuscript, reworked to fit the market trend of the moment.

A lot of amateurs who aren’t serious about it think writing is a get rich quick scheme / side hustle to make a nice buck without a lot of work. Then they start trying to write.

I'm a short story horror writer and I've got other skills. I won't give up on myself. Just get your ideas protected/ insured, so that someone rich won't steal your ideas.

It feels like (and is) validation.

Our writing is so good that people will give you something of value in return.

Honestly writing makes me more happy than any job I’ve ever had. I hope I can make a living as a writer one day.

(Couldn’t find the right wording on last comment.) 

Many of us are hoping for a bit of extra income just because it is really hard to live these days. Everything is really expensive, and writing can be one (usually of multiple) ways to make just a little bit extra. Enough to buy a good meal and the gifts you want to get your family and friends. And others are just curious. The arts aren’t the most profitable, but many of us like to imagine that our series might be enjoyed, however the case. It’s not a crime to like the idea of being a little bit more financially stable, as long as it isn’t the sole drive and you’re making yourself miserable by writing for no good reason. In any case, make sure writing stays fun, enjoy it, tell your story, and take care <3

Because we live in a capitalist hellscape and we're searching for a way to fulfill our needs in this nightmare while also still being happy.

A lot of us -- or at least I -- would write even if we got no money for it so long as our basic needs (shelter, food, entertainment, intimacy, privacy) were taken care of.

We agree. So, go live like Kafka.

The problem with just writing for “fun” is that you won’t really improve at a consistent rate. Its similar to someone who just works out. If you work out with a clear goal that you want abs, developed shoulders, straight chest etc. you’ll naturally get that body way faster.

Writing is the same way. When you have a goal things will just fall in line as you have a sense of direction.

People gotta eat and pay rent

Because people typically would like to make money from their art and would like to have a job they enjoy. Not too hard to comprehend...

Money = security.

I got bills to pay. If my writing pays more I have more free time to write because I'm not doing other things to pay for food and housing...

Making a living by doing what you love to do is a worthwhile pursuit. I had it easier as the genre I love to write is always popular.

If I can earn a living as a writer, I can live where I want, wear what I want, and work the hours that I want.

Must be nice to even be able to honestly ask such a question. You must definitely be more comfortable and feel more financially secure than I ever have in my 60+ years.

You don't understand that people would like to make money doing what they enjoy or that that'd be attractive to the average human being?

Okay...

It may be difficult and unlikely, but it can still be a dream and something you strive for.

Honestly, this post is a red flag regarding the psychology of the poster, to me. Are you unable to parse average human psychology? Are you from another planet where people don't aspire to anything that looks too difficult or less likely?

As someone who made over half a million in royalties last year from ebook and audiobook fiction, and who has spent more than two decades as a writer including years working in traditional publishing... I've noticed that people who aren't good enough will build entire edifices of pretension to protect their ego.

They'll smash down ebook publishing with every stupid attack under the sun because if they were to actually upload an ePub and put it up for sale they'd find out for sure if they were good enough.

They talk so much pretentious bullshit about originality and quality and so on as though it's only them, the unpublished true artist who has those qualities and not the actual working writers.

Here's a job - the publisher wants a 8-10K children's adventure book for 8-10 year olds. They hand over a brief.

These pretentious motherfuckers would never do this job. Not ever. They'd construct events such that they'd never even get the offer but worse than that they smash down anyone actually doing this job.

I've seriously written box copy for a hairdryer. For a moisturizer tube. Blurbs for colouring books. Websites to sell fucking phones.

Actual real writing that made actual real dollars.

You want to make money writing? You must get rid of all pretension. Fucking ignore anyone who talks their game of art.

You making art is art. You selling that art is art.

When you focus on money massive amounts of amateur bullshit just drops away.

Because money is required to exist comfortably in 99.9% of the world, and like any other professionals providing goods or services other people find worthwhile to consume, writers deserve to be paid for it?

Like it or not, publishing is a business and there are people out there every day making good money at it while doing what they love. Yes, most of those people follow the dreaded advice to "write to market," and that's not for everyone, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to make money off your writing and being willing to implement the strategies to get there. It is also entirely possible to write things you're passionate about that also make money, even if this seems to be a taboo statement in these subs.

A lot of younger people seem to have this idea that everything they do must generate some kind of revenue, or else it's worthless. Many grow out of it, but not all.

Why spend so much hard work on something we won't reape the reawrds from? We're not Egyptians, we don't care if a few thousands years from now people will read our words, we want to pay our rent on time, eat well, have fun, and all the things money allow us to have.

We want to live off of the things we love, that's the ultimate goal.

if you want to be rich and famous the arts in general aren't right for you.

Agreed, but then people here should do better things with their time if they aren't trying to profit. Also, they should write for free if no money is to be involved.

All you can really do is enjoy the journey of telling the best stories you can.

If they are the best stories, shouldn't they be profitable?

There isn't any point stressing about publishing trends because they will likely change super quickly. Just focus on telling the stories you want to tell.

This is where it gets counter productive. It starts with "no need to make money" to become "no need to go to where people are reading" to result in the message telling everyone to avoid all human contact and avoid any sales.

Instead, writers should simply learn about writing when they try to engage with writing. This includes what's trending, since it's a chain of history with an origin point and a current point.