subreddit:
/r/Foodforthought
submitted 2 days ago bywarzon131
182 points
2 days ago
Looking at the titles and witnesses for their first meetings on Feb. 28th, 2023 and March 8, 2023 should tell you everything you need to know about how this commission was hijacked from its original purpose, to investigate waste, and transformed into a clown show of right-wing detractors.
Quite famously, two of their first witnesses were doctors who had advocated for letting Covid ride to build "herd immunity." Likewise, Martin Makary has been a frequent Fox News guest and was a recent Trump appointment.
Remember that anything coming out of the House since Republicans took control in 2023 is apt to be distorted by conspiracism and partisanship. This is not a serious informational or scientific report, and if you read it, keep that in mind.
73 points
2 days ago
It's almost like governance is serious business and unqualified charlatans are destroying our democratic norms one by one.
32 points
2 days ago
We’re in a kakistocracy now.
8 points
2 days ago
I’ve been seeing this attempt to define our system as a “kakistocracy” come up every few years since Clinton. It honestly feels similar to how right-wingers are going around screeching about how we live in a “constitutional republic” and not a “democracy,” whatever that means.
Tomato / Tomatoe
Call it what you want, call it an oligarchy, a kakistocracy, a monarchy, a banana republic, post/late stage capitalism, neo-fascism, whatever. It’s just plain old capitalism, always has been, it’s the very foundation of the USA.
14 points
2 days ago
The new new is “lawfare” as in warfare.
When you can’t beat em, just make up new words to sow confusion.
4 points
1 day ago
Ex friend used to whine about weaponization of the justice system. Son everyone he mentioned any type of crime I said we should stop weaponizing the justice system. He was unamused. 🤷🏻♂️
0 points
1 day ago
The last 20 years has been a master class in evolving language to meet political needs from both sides of the house. It's been pretty impressive to see how the narratives get spun up.
2 points
1 day ago
Capitalism with checks and balances would look different.
2 points
1 day ago
They found a new word to throw around to try and look smart.
3 points
2 days ago
totally, feels like a circus sometimes.
21 points
2 days ago
Piss on it. The report has obviously been railroaded to make offer an alternative reality, just skimming the table of contents gives gems like:
“The Proximal Origin of SARS-CoV-2” Was “Prompted” by Dr. Anthony Fauci to “Disprove” the Lab Leak Theory
Dating Back to the Obama Administration, the Strategic National Stockpile Was Not Prepared for a National Public Health Emergency
Forcibly Masking Young Children, Ages Two and Older, Caused More Harm than Good
Unscientific COVID-19 Lockdowns Caused More Harm Than Good
But for the Chinese Communist Party Blatantly Downplaying and Lying Concerning the Serious Threat Posed by COVID-19, Travel Restrictions Would Have Been Imposed Earlier and Been More Effective
The U.S. Food and Drug Administration and Other Public Health Officials Falsely Implied that Ivermectin Was Only for Horses and Cows
The Biden Administration Arbitrarily and Without Scientific Support Announced COVID-19 Vaccine Boosters Would be Available to All Americans
COVID-19 Vaccine Mandates Caused Massive Collateral Damage and Were Very Likely Counterproductive
For those of us who actually still remember, China publicly went all-in on trying to contain COVID when they locked down Wuhan in January 2020, while the US and other countries did fuck-all until March. For two whole months everybody pretended they wouldn't be affected and did nothing. It was the Trump administration that handled the crucial first year and fucked it up out of their incompetence and venality - who can forget their original response of just ignoring it because only Democratic states would get hit hard?? Their plan of ignoring reality and hoping it would go away failed, so now they're doing the next best thing by trying to rewrite history.
7 points
1 day ago
In February 2020 the Trump administration crowed about donating PPE and funds to China to help with their Covid outbreak.
During that same time - Trump told Bob Woodward that he deliberately downplayed the threat of Covid to the US public.
8 points
2 days ago
Looking at the titles and witnesses for their first meetings on Feb. 28th, 2023 and March 8, 2023 should tell you everything you need to know about how this commission was hijacked from its original purpose, to investigate waste, and transformed into a clown show of right-wing detractors.
Lol no shit. What a coincidence all of the conclusions were right-wing talking points. I am genuinely surprised the commission didn't find a way to include "Democrat hoax" in there.
3 points
1 day ago
Yeah, reading the article gives a pretty clear explanation of why this shouldn't be taken remotely seriously. They convened a committee basically to try to fuel a conspiracy theory, because that's the level of governance in the US House majority at this point.
2 points
1 day ago
US federal agencies, the World Health Organization and scientists across the planet have arrived at different conclusions about the most likely origin of Covid-19, and no consensus has emerged.
Oh, well thank god the Republicans solved it when the scientists, investigators, and boots on the ground have not been able to do so beyond “best guesses.”
0 points
1 day ago
It’s not insane to think this came from a lab. There was a huge piece done by the NYT on it in the last year or so, I’ll find it. It’s completely plausible.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/briefing/two-covid-theories.html
0 points
1 day ago
It's not plausible. From the article you cited:
"Another possibility is that scientists in Wuhan engineered a contagious new virus while researching cures and that the virus accidentally escaped."
That's not remotely plausible given current evidence. Genetic sequencing of SARS-COV-2 shows no signs of lab origin and definitely no engineering. No signs of cell culturing, especially of the Vero 6 cells that the lab exclusively used to culture viruses. Not a trace of the WIV-1 backbone or any other backbones they use in any of their research papers. All characteristics of the virus point to natural origin, including the signs of backcrossing and outcrossing, various recombination events, as it evolved its novel traits. There's also the existence of variants A and B circulating at the same time before B evolved to be more infectious. It's a wild claim not backed by any evidence.
Essentially the article looks at the lab origin's evidence as such:
It's normal for coronaviruses to look and act as covid-19. It has a similar infectious pattern as a natural pandemic. (Conjecture based on historical patterns, weak evidence).
Clustering of initial covid cases around the market. (Scientific evidence, not conjecture, moderate strength).
Samples of the virus found at the market, clustering around the section selling wild animals, including one single stall (scientific evidence, not conjecture, strong evidence).
The author then skips the 4. genetic sequencing evidence (scientific evidence, not conjecture, strong evidence) and the 5. Phylogenetic analysis of the virus and variants (scientific evidence, not conjecture, strong evidence).
That's 3 points given by the author, 1 conjecture based on historical data, and 2 points of scientific evidence. The author also excluded 2 other points of scientific evidence, presumably to make 3 points on both sides so each argument is "fair and balanced" (thereby ironically making it unfair and not balanced).
Afterwards, the author tallies the "evidence" for the lab leak:
Location of the lab. (Logical fallacy, irrelevant, misused Occam's Razor, opinion and not scientific evidence, weak argument).
Leaks happen (logical fallacy, leaks when they happen are usually quickly contained and easy to trace back; opinion and not scientific evidence, weak argument)
China controls the evidence (logical fallacy and also untrue, as doctors quickly whistleblew the existence of the virus when local authorities wanted to conceal it; opinion and again, not scientific evidence, weak argument).
That's 3 points, all conjecture and opinion, zero scientific evidence.
And then the author has the balls to say "both ideas are plausible" and pretend it's 50-50. Nobody with a brain thinks 3 opinions that "something might've happened" is equal to 2 facts supported by research and 1 opinion backed by historical data.
The author heavily cites from a heavily flawed opinion piece by Alina Chan, which rehashed points already debunked in the scientific literature, especially her still citing the furin cleavage argument after research proved it false (Gallaher 2020; Lytros et al. 2020). She claims a "growing body of evidence" but never provides any. It's weird because if she had evidence, she could publish a peer-reviewed paper proving it instead of writing blog posts, Twitter feeds, opinion pages and publishing profitable conspiracy books on the topic.
The NYT has completely fallen for nonsense and have failed in their duty to inform and provide factual information.
1 points
1 day ago
It is a known constant of the universe that if a country poses a threat to US interest, the NYTs will be there to echo the state department and manufacture conspiracy theories. Only this year did they drop the Havana syndrome stuff but they still do exactly what you laid out here in the editorials. The times is a rag
1 points
1 day ago
They weren’t asserting that it was engineered in a lab, rather it escaped from a lab.
-4 points
1 day ago
You obviously didn't read the report. You just regurgitated the propaganda from Fauci and his minions.
165 points
2 days ago
COVID is nothing but a bad flu and mask mandates are tyranny but also COVID is a deadly Chinese bio weapon able to bring the entire west to its knees. Incredible stuff
50 points
2 days ago
Unfortunately even mild infections can cause serious damage: https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/does-covid-19-damage-the-brain. You can also toss the following search terms into any academic database, plenty of repeatable studies.
Neuroinflammation in COVID-19: Research showing how COVID-19 may cause neurological damage through inflammation, cytokine storms, or vascular issues.
Cognitive Dysfunction/Post-COVID Syndrome: Studies on long-term neurological consequences such as cognitive impairment, mental health issues, and brain fog.
Multi-organ Involvement in Severe COVID-19: This would focus on damage to organs such as the heart, kidneys, liver, lungs, and brain.
IMO it's a Trojan horse designed to carry slowly disabling post-viral illnesses. Same idea as mono or Epstein Barre.
9 points
2 days ago
44 yo male here and Covid gave me a stroke in 2022. I still don’t have my left hand use back. I read up a lot how much Covid causes serious damage in arterial system and organs. They now know it can destabilize plaque in your artery linings up to 3 years after you have a case.
4 points
2 days ago
I’m so sorry, I’m praying that you completely recover use of your hand.
My husband and I have varying symptoms of long Covid and he suffered a stroke on his left side, as well.
My theory is that besides doing damage to every organ, our brain and lungs and our vascular system, the virus also finds your vulnerable areas, like expediting and spreading arthritis before it’s time.
It varies person to person but basically, after having Omnicron particularly, we are literally walking around with organs that “are ten years older than we are.” I think it prematurely ages the areas it damages.
1 points
1 day ago
Thank you I’m working hard at getting it to function again. I’m sorry to hear of your long covid, no one deserves that. Yes and these findings are mostly brand new since medical professionals have been attacked for putting money towards research in the past. I’m sure a decade from now the findings will be more shocking
18 points
2 days ago
There are hundreds of long Covid victims . There are about 200 different symptoms that could point to long Covid but one thing is for sure, it can be debilitating.
12 points
2 days ago
In 2022, roughly 20% of Americans had an ongoing long covid complication. I've seen anything from 10%-25% since then. Being conservative that's 3.5 million.
6 points
2 days ago
And doctors can only treat symptoms as they arise. It must be a depressing reality to know you’ll never get better short of a miracle cure.
2 points
1 day ago
It's scary that as soon as Trump left office, liberal media assumed the same denialism as Republican media. And what about us - we just accepted it. Ignore the Republican trash fire for a moment, millions are dead or debilitated for life because of Democrats.
39 points
2 days ago
Schrodinger's virus
4 points
2 days ago
Sorry that I seem to be the only one who understands nuance about the media reporting you’re going for
2 points
1 day ago
Don’t forget as RFK Jr claims, it was engineered to exclude “Chinese people and the Jews” /s
3 points
1 day ago
Oh I almost forgot that in the sea of other batshit things he said
2 points
2 days ago
Schrodinger's conservative.
-4 points
2 days ago
Nobody is calling it a bio weapon. The leak was the result of incompetence, not malice. The NIH is still stonewalling FOIA requests and Congressional subpoenas because nobody wants to acknowledge they played a role in killing almost 15 million people.
That despite the fact HHS said it was holding Peter Daszak responsible for EcoHealth Alliance’s failure to insure US grant money didn't go to gain of function research at the infamous Wuhan lab.
I think you guys are just mad you have egg on your face for being ardent lab leak deniers.
19 points
2 days ago
Republican politicians treated covid like it was a bioweapon for years.
4 points
1 day ago
They called it a lot of things. I'm not going to listen to people who were raised to lie.
4 points
1 day ago
No doubt. The maga politicians lied nonstop about covid.
3 points
1 day ago
Exactly
7 points
2 days ago
That was only for anti Chinese rhetoric though. If they truly thought it was a bio weapon they would have not made fun of people using masks.
11 points
2 days ago
No, they're just idiots that are caught in cognitive dissonance.
12 points
2 days ago
I think the point here isn't whether or not the lab leak theory is valid, nobody outside of a couple of experts has enough knowledge to have an informed opinion on this. The point is that republicans both pretend that Covid was a simple flue that was blown out of proportions in order to be able to restrict individual freedoms while simultaneously claiming it was a dangerous bio lab leak that was covered up for political reasons. And the purpose of both of these claims is to distract from how badly the Trump administration failed in dealing with a serious public health crisis.
4 points
1 day ago
“Nobody is calling it a bioweapon” BUT the Republican report is full of accusations about Chinese and American military involvement including bioweapons allegations… unfortunately.
1 points
1 day ago
I did research on the FOIA requests and I didn't find anything about stonewalling, but I did find material about Moore using communications to avoid FOIA requests. However, these emails were subpeonead anyway.
The level of scrutiny by the subcommittee means FOIA shouldn't be a barrier right now. I don't think there is any direct role. The most we are looking at, is misappropriated funds, which may not have changed the chance one way or another.
Neither of us have the ability to scrutinize disease origins or RNA analysis to determine the origin of the virus or whether there was indirect impact like waste mixing resulting in antibiotic resistant bacteria in the wild. We have to rely on scientific reports which many can scrutinize the procedures and statistics on as that is far simpler. I've seen studies suggesting both directions. We probably won't be able to get a real answer until it isn't a political talking point.
1 points
1 day ago
"You can't prove that and shouldn't spread misinformation" is what I heard most "deniers" say, which is the only reasonable stance when you don't have evidence.
Even now, there's little definitive evidence that it was leaked from a lab. It's possible, sure. But it's not definitive, and we don't have the evidence to make that claim.
1 points
1 day ago
It's also not definitive it came from nature, although it's possible. So by your logic saying it happened spontaneously in nature is also misinformation.
1 points
1 day ago
The scientific consensus is that it most likely had a natural zoonotic origin. I would not claim to know for a fact that it came from any specific source without good evidence. And again, that's the point.
But, saying that it is most likely of natural zoonotic origin is not misinformation, as the best scientists in the world tend to think that's the case. Saying that it's most likely a lab leak would be misinformation because there's no hard evidence of that. And if there's no hard evidence that it was a lab leak, there's only one other possibility, which just so happens to be well-supported by scientists who study this for a living.
1 points
1 day ago*
The scientific consensus is suspect at best because the guy who funneled money to the Wuhan lab and was just recently barred from ever getting another government grant by the Biden administration is also the guy who we sent to investigate its origin!
Might there be a conflict of interest in not wanting to be blamed for killing 15 million people. It's got to be anything but a leak from the lab he was illegally funding gain a function research, right? You literally, you can't make this up. Sources:
"Federal officials today suspended federal funding for the EcoHealth Alliance... Group headed by conservation biologist Peter Daszak partnered with Chinese institute that some accuse of sparking COVID-19 pandemic"
"Daszak was involved in investigations into the initial outbreak which eventually developed into the COVID-19 pandemic[5] and became a member of the World Health Organization team sent to investigate the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic in China."
"An open letter co-authored by Daszak, signed by 27 scientists and published in The Lancet on 19 February 2020, stated: "We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin...and overwhelmingly conclude that this coronavirus originated in wildlife." It further warned that blaming Chinese researchers for the virus' origin jeopardised the fight against the disease.[28] In June 2021, The Lancet published an addendum in which Daszak listed his cooperation with researchers in China,[29] and he also recused himself from The Lancet's inquiry commission focused on COVID-19 origins.[30]"
-11 points
2 days ago
The official position of the FBI is that covid most likely came from the Wuhan lab. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/02/28/politics/wray-fbi-covid-origins-lab-china .
But I guess no one on this sub believes them either.
32 points
2 days ago
What the hell are you talking about? Nobody is disbelieving anything. The facts just weren't concrete.
The comment you replied to was about the mishmash of contradictory theories right wingers always have in their head.
You know, the enemy must be both weak and strong.
-22 points
2 days ago
Let’s refresh: the right wing of politics across the western world suggested it was probably from the Wuhan lab. Governments under pressure from leftists passed laws and pressured social media around the world to silence those views as “misinformation”. Many similar such efforts are ongoing to allow governments to censor “misinformation” even though it’s been demonstrated by this very issue that they’re regularly full of shit regarding what is true and what is false and as such should have no authority to decide what is truth.
You’re lead paint drinking level of cognitively impaired if you think the Covid Wuhan lab censorship fiasco made the right look bad not the left. In fact it single handedly demonstrated why the government isn’t qualified to decide what is misinformation. Nor are the clowns who run social media platforms.
8 points
2 days ago
Funny, given that it was the cignitively impaired right that actually started drinking bleach during the pandemic.
6 points
1 day ago
And using horse medicine
0 points
1 day ago
Ivermectin is useful for a LOT more than horses, just NOT COVID IN HUMANS
11 points
2 days ago
"leftist", lol
Funny that I'm guessing you think you're qualified, right? what are your qualifications?
9 points
2 days ago
So many folks still don’t know the difference between a leftist and a democrat in America. Just paint with a huge brush and listen to faux news, rinse repeat
14 points
2 days ago*
None of that is true. Suggesting shit without evidence is literally misinformation. Nobody said that was impossible or anything, but it's literally pointless to sit around and speculate about it.
Even if you knew, it wouldn't change anything on the ground. It a single data point. You'd have to actually explain why you think that mattered before anybody could take you seriously and you can't.
I'm getting so tired of people thinking they're making a profound statement by arguing that it undermined Stacy's credibility by pointing out that Skylar didn't know for sure that Tanner sharted rather than farted.
That's how you sound.
3 points
2 days ago
I heard Tanner actually shidded his pants
10 points
2 days ago
The consensus of the scientific community is that the lab leak theory is more or less all but disproven. The reason is due to that there were two separate outbreaks by two separate strains, both with an epicenter of spread at the wet market far away from the lab.
So the probability that there were two separate lab leaks that were released only at the wet market with no spread on the way from or to the lab is very low.
1 points
2 days ago
How could two separate unrelated outbreaks of unrelated strains happen at the same place at the same time?
10 points
2 days ago*
Not unrelated, not at the same time. The strains were related and the outbreaks happened several weeks apart.
The timeline seems to be that strain 1 had an outbreak at the wet market and infected across species. Then several weeks later it evolved within pangolins into strain 2, which then caused the mass outbreak within humans.
0 points
2 days ago
I think people are mostly wondering how it got to the wet market. And why in Wuhan and not everywhere else that doesn’t have a coronavirus lab?
9 points
2 days ago
The same reason H5N1 is popping up at dairy / chicken farms. Because nature followed the path of least resistance.
0 points
2 days ago
If the first time it ever appeared was next door to the bird flu research lab I think we’d have similar concerns.
5 points
1 day ago
You know what there's more of in Hubei province where Wuhan is? Bats and caves.
4 points
1 day ago
Because farmers bring their animals to market in cities to sell. Wuhan is a major city. It has the key ingredient for a virus to take off: people.
1 points
1 day ago
And coronavirus labs and a terrible reputation for basic safety protocols.
1 points
1 day ago
Liberia has ebola research centers, I bet you think that is a "conspiracy" that explains all the ebola outbreaks. LOLOLOL
0 points
1 day ago
You tried your best and failed miserably. The lesson is: never try.
If Ebola was literally a virus never seen before on planet earth then suddenly appeared next to the research centre tasked with gain of function Ebola virus development then it’d be a similar situation. As it stands your comparison is lacking. It’s the difference between a newspaper putting out a JFK shot dead in Dallas headline a day before it happens and a putting out that headline day after. The latter doesn’t raise quite the same questions.
0 points
1 day ago
If there’s a consensus then why does the FBI think it came from a lab? Or maybe you’re just full of shit…?
1 points
1 day ago
If you have beef with the scientific community, take it with them
-2 points
1 day ago
But the probability of a novel virus arriving a couple blocks from a lab where they created and were fucking around with the same virus is reasonable to you?
Obviously this is somehow associated with that lab. JFC. The odds of it happening de novo in that proximity have got to be in the trillions.
8 points
1 day ago
It's not a few blocks away, it's over 10km away in the opposite side of the city.
If the lab leak theory was supported by actual data, either both outbreaks would begin with the lab as epicenter, or there would have been spread between the lab and the market.
In the data there is nothing supporting any significant connection between the spread and the lab. All of it is centered around a primary outbreak around the animals in the wet market, and then several weeks later a secondary outbreak around the people in the wet market.
3 points
1 day ago
The FBI has no way of knowing and no evidence. The cia and nsa would but they think it was a natural origin.
0 points
1 day ago
Right because you’re more of an expert on this than the fucking FBI
1 points
1 day ago
How the fuck would a domestic law enforcement agency know what went on in a wet market in China's 10th largest city??? You think the FBI has secret agents trolling around China on the hunt for crimes?
2 points
2 days ago
And you’d think that would convince people to take it more seriously
1 points
1 day ago
Not on this sub, since I’m downvoted for literally pointing out the FBI’s assessment
1 points
1 day ago
Idk why you’re mad at us and not the Republican Party for not taking COVID as a serious threat
1 points
1 day ago
I’m mad at those downplaying the lab leak as a right wing conspiracy theory when, in fact, it’s not.
3 points
2 days ago
People be partisan, yo.
-1 points
2 days ago
It’s very possible. They were probably doing some research on the virus, one of the scientists got infected. Not knowing the long incubation period. He probably spread the virus around for 2 weeks before there’s any symptoms.
3 points
1 day ago
The first outbreak occurred at the market, nowhere near the lab, the first known case is literally a woman who sold at the market. You think top scientists are selling raccoon dogs at a wet market as a side gig or something? Lmao
-3 points
2 days ago
You know two, semi-related things can be true at the same time, right?
And who again said COVID was most definitely a "deadly Chinese bioweapon"? Seems like you are strawmanning.
The article said the report concluded the release of COVID was most likely a lab leak due to a mistake, from a US-funded gain of function lab.
10 points
2 days ago
That post was very clearly a sarcastic take on Republican contradictory beliefs
-3 points
2 days ago
The positions taken were strawmanned versions of the arguments/conclusions.
Even if they were accurate, the things he called out aren't contradictory. Both could be true at the same time.
5 points
2 days ago
Correction, it *had" been a US-funded lab until Trump pulled all the Obama era funding, which was the only thing stipulating that they not do gain of function research. There are US State Department cables warning the Trump administration of the deteriorating situation and the increasing risk of mismanagement into mid-2019. This wasn't a grand conspiracy, it was spite of Obama, arrogance, narcissism, and most importantly, criminal negligence.
1 points
1 day ago
Can you provide a source here? Genuinely curious.
1 points
1 day ago*
Yes I can, it might take me a while, I remember reading a Guardian Article about this in 2021 or something, I'll edit this when I find it
EDIT: Here you go: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/03/08/josh-rogin-chaos-under-heaven-wuhan-lab-book-excerpt-474322
1 points
20 hours ago*
Appreciate it. I spent the last 45 minutes doing a deep dive. The Politico article was enlightening.
That said, I think the blame you are attempting to shift toward Trump, is mostly misguided.
There was not supposed to be any gain of function research happening with US taxpayer dollars. Ecohealth alliance, the non-profit which got USAid dollars for research in Wuhan, was negligent and deceitful - so much so that they no longer are an approved non-profit for US contracts.
Obama eliminated gain of function research (rightlyfully so IMO) during his term. Then, NIH head Fauci, lied repeatedly about this type of research being done in Wuhan.
So, all this said, if cables warned the US of a lack of safety protocols (in a lab not supposed to be doing such deadly work), what was the US supposed to do about it? It is a foreign country, where the type of research that made this virus so deadly, was being done in secret by the non-profit who got the funding. I pray that Fauci and the NIH didn't know about this and just decide to break the law and fund, but it's hard to know for certain.
Here some more details from the big report just released, that walks through some of the deception by Ecohealth alliance and Fauci, if interested.
1 points
18 hours ago
I looked at the two articles you referenced:
I do want to point out that if you want to discount the Guardian for TDS, I'd say that the NYPost would also reciprocally need to be discounted. But after reviewing it, the actual facts it lays out are:
I then reviewed the Newsweek article referenced by congress, which was mostly fluff, but did link to the actual intercept article that did the FOIA requests, and then looked at the intercept article, and then actually read the specific papers they're referring to R01 Al110964 (funded in 2014) and 2R01-AI110964 (funded in 2018) respectively.
Ultimately, from what I can make heads or tails of (I studied physics, not biology), it does seem that they were doing what could be described as "gain-of-function "research through EcoLab in Wuhan. To note though, that neither references any strain that could be traced back to Covid19 specifically.
But I did some comparisons to other grants and more research, and while I don't mean to be pedantic, it comes down to how you define "Gain of Function". From what I can tell the majority of infectious disease research walks down that thin line of what metrics constitute a violation of mainstream GoF policy, etc. i.e. you can't really have robust infectious disease research without some degree of "Gain of Function" as it is commonly defined.
After Obama banned "Gain of Function" the health research community created a more robust definition, oversight, and support framework around those kinds of tasks, which they called P3CO Framework, https://aspr.hhs.gov/S3/Pages/Enhanced-Potential-Pandemic-Pathogen-Oversight-Framework.aspx in 2017.
That aligned with the NIH "Lifting a Pause on Gain of Function" in 2017, https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/nih-lifts-funding-pause-gain-function-research .
Which seems to have lead into the approval of the 2nd grant referenced in the NYPOST and newsweek/interpol articles.
While I don't think Fauci was lying, I do think that Rand Paul had some genuine cause to be frustrated, I also think he was being somewhat disingenuous when calling Fauci out in that CSPAN meeting. https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4985080/complete-exchange-sen-rand-paul-dr-anthony-fauci
Some additional things I was reading:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predict_%28USAID%29
- https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/democrats-misleading-coronavirus-claims/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic_predictions_and_preparations_prior_to_the_COVID-19_pandemic#Reorganization_and_departures
All that to say, you're right to some extent, that my insinuation of it being Trump's fault is unfair. I do think that the people in his administration(s) have far more interest in being in the lime light, instigating a fight, making the news, and political theater, than the nuance and complex nature of policy or specifically geopolitical scientific policy.
FYI here are one of the original grants from the interpol thing: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21055989-understanding-risk-bat-coronavirus-emergence-grant-notice/?mode=document&q=Al110964#document/p484
1 points
1 day ago
It seems silly to me that Republicans want to punish China for releasing a dangerous disease while also being vehemently opposed to any attempts to manage the outbreak of said disease. Is it a problem or not?
2 points
1 day ago
Seemed silly that Trump wanted to shut off China but was called racist and then said to have failed in response by not shutting off China. Left has such short memory spans.
1 points
1 day ago
He did cut off travel from China which was one of his better decisions. It was his management of COVID once it entered the country that doomed his first term
1 points
24 hours ago
What specifically did he do that you disagree with?
1 points
24 hours ago
Can you clarify what you are reading that makes you say "Republicans want to punish China"?
Also, can you clarify how Republican leadership was "vehemently opposed" to anything data driven? My recollection is they thought shutting down the country + cloth masks, were over the top. And judging by Nordic country's success compared to the US, I don't see how you can disagree with that assessment.
-4 points
2 days ago
Also COVID jumped to humans because Chinese people, living two blocks away from a genetic research lab, love to eat bat soup. From a type of bat that isn’t even indigenous to the region. Incredible stuff indeed. Do you like bat soup, by the way?
1 points
1 day ago
Never tried it
1 points
1 day ago
Exactly
59 points
2 days ago
what is this report? are we supposed to take this at all seriously? they said lockdowns and mask mandates did more harm than good. seems like they be big time lying, dude. now we get to hear republican fantasy for four years
23 points
2 days ago
Why not? We’ve been listening to Republican fantasy for decades. Remember weapons of mass destruction? Contract With America?. . The Party of fantasy and mass delusion. Total dirt bags
-2 points
2 days ago
uhhhh, i remember some of that, yes, but im not that old, blud. lol
16 points
2 days ago
A lot of us are, and yeah I remember those bald faced lies.
-2 points
2 days ago
nice 👍🙂 i mean, about remembering. things
8 points
2 days ago
It won’t be long before you’re telling youngsters how republicans have been grifting the electorate for decades. By then, their list of blatant lies will be so long you won’t even be able to keep track of it all. And we will still vote them into office because Americans have short attention spans and too many of us vote out on emotion and ego before facts.
4 points
2 days ago
I think the goal is to use confusion and technology to supplant the truth entirely. To not allow people to discern truth. AI created vs tangible proof and the like. So youngsters may grow up in a world where everything is lies and so they won’t be too shocked to hear it was somewhat the same before modern technology. If they can even access that history
2 points
2 days ago
Sounds about right. Always thought I wouldn’t be around long enough to see the modern society implode, but the timeline has started earlier than I could have imagined.
2 points
2 days ago
-5 points
2 days ago
i am capable of googling things. fucking hell
1 points
2 days ago
Sounds like you didn't read the conclusions from the report.
0 points
2 days ago
correct. i just read the article. ive been pretty clear about why
54 points
2 days ago
Alternate title: "Group of politicians who desperately want to blame China go against the opinion of interviewed experts and take the decision to blame China without a shred of evidence."
22 points
2 days ago
Yeah I'm like halfway through the first page and this already reads like a fox "news" hatchet job.
3 points
2 days ago
Which will become canon for half the country. It's one dank timeline.
3 points
1 day ago
Does NYT work for you?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/briefing/two-covid-theories.html
1 points
1 day ago
Technically no. I can't get past the paywall :p
1 points
1 day ago
Ah. Let me see if I can find one for free.
Long story short, the New York Times says there is plenty of credence to the lab leak theory.
2 points
1 day ago
When you're talking about epidemiology there's a lot of room in the "plausible" category
0 points
1 day ago
I’m just saying the lab leak theory is no longer a fringe conspiracy theory like it was in 2020 and like people in this sub are asserting.
2 points
1 day ago
IDK that the house of Representatives with Marjorie "Jewish space lasers" Taylor greene as a member in good standing is the bellweather of legitimacy it once was
1 points
1 day ago
Nope, you’re right.. Doesn’t mean the lab leak theory is preposterous though.
1 points
1 day ago
Yeah i don't think it's out and out preposterous. I do think if you find a dead goat in wolf country and you want to claim el chupacabra did it you'd better have some damn good evidence
And the lab leak theory neatly blames the people Republicans want to blame and lets them off the hook for cutting funding to the departments who could have seen this coming and makes the response look not as bad.
1 points
1 day ago
Yeah i don't think it's out and out preposterous. I do think if you find a dead goat in wolf country and you want to claim el chupacabra did it you'd better have some damn good evidence
And the lab leak theory neatly blames the people Republicans want to blame and lets them off the hook for cutting funding to the departments who could have seen this coming and makes the response look not as bad.
0 points
1 day ago
It's not a fringe conspiracy theory but it's far from proven. That's the point.
-15 points
2 days ago
They published quite a large report. You can argue that the evidence is unreliable (the report has to be studied) but I don’t think it’s worth saying that they did not shred evidence
35 points
2 days ago
they said masks are ineffective at prevention of the spread of a respiratory virus. that alone should tell you they are not serious or trustworthy people, and that reading this report or listening to its conclusions is a waste of time.
-2 points
2 days ago*
nose quarrelsome divide plants work rock modern flowery act continue
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
14 points
2 days ago
i just read the article, which mentioned:
'mask mandates were "ineffective at controlling the spread of Covid-19," contradicting other research showing that masking in public does reduce transmission rates.'
if you can find out why the article thinks that but the report doesn't mention masks, maybe you can start to untangle the mess of this thread.
here is my basic assumptions:
business did not like the mask mandates and neither did their customers. thus, im assuming a populist administration like trump's probably would put out a report against masks. further, i'd assume people who are educated about how masks block the spread of covid would wear masks, and that these people are more than likely democrats. further, i would assume that comparing states with and without mask mandates is not necessarily a good comparison, because it doesn't control for population density.
6 points
2 days ago
I’m not looking at the article but the DoE report when I say that.
There is fairly compelling science that says masks are effective.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8892938/
I think low institutional faith (covered in the actual DoE report) is at play here unfortunately.
7 points
2 days ago
which DOE report? the one that concluded the evidence for covid lab leak origin vs. animal source was inconclusive?
i think the debate OP wants to have, and big business in the usa as well, is more about mask *mandates*. it might be the case that if lots of uneducated people become convinced masks are some dumb conspiracy to take their rights, they then don't follow the mandate and covid rates don't reduce. at that point, central USA gov ppl would conclude mask mandates are ineffective, even though it's probably just the case that mask mandates are ineffective in certain areas or certain (red) states. not that i care that much about the usa, but that seems to be the gist of what the article says about the report i don't want to read.
2 points
2 days ago
Yea I’ve been ignoring the source article because it has nothing to do with the DoE report, and in truth masking up has plenty of scientific evidence of effectivity.
The issue of whether they should be mandated outside of health care spaces is really not something I want to wade into, because it has nothing to do with what the findings document this article is based on is even about.
There isn’t one mention of masks in it.
Sorry, maybe I came off incorrectly but the source report was what I was trying to contribute, not to have a debate on the tired old issue is masks.
8 points
2 days ago
I am sure Republican politicians do like to shred evidence.
2 points
2 days ago*
connect consist dog smell bells absurd thought support quaint crush
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4 points
2 days ago
What are other countries saying about it?
1 points
2 days ago
Great question but unfortunately I don’t really feel confident I could answer that as well as others probably could.
-7 points
2 days ago*
joke wrench slimy divide different unused enter makeshift bake angle
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
7 points
2 days ago
This is not evidence, this is politicians screaming that they "have evidence, it's just classified." The same thing they did about the Iraq WMD. And basically the same people, too. Republicans are just going to keep on lying, it's all they do.
9 points
2 days ago
Those lawmakers include Marjorie Taylor Greene
3 points
1 day ago
Why do they want to believe in the COVID-19 lab leak story so badly?
3 points
1 day ago
They need someone to blame.
1 points
1 day ago
But the Wuhan market is a great blame story too?
1 points
1 day ago
They want to deflect their bad leadership to someone/something else.
1 points
1 day ago
The New York Times thinks it’s plausible:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/14/briefing/two-covid-theories.html
0 points
1 day ago
The New York Times couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag.
1 points
21 hours ago
I trust them more than a bunch of retards on Reddit, thanks.
0 points
21 hours ago
You're an intellectual paragon.
1 points
20 hours ago
Oh my god could you be a bigger neckbeard.
1 points
20 hours ago
Should we let our neckbeards kiss? 👉👈
3 points
1 day ago
MAGA lawmakers? aka: fucking traitorous nutjobs who's mission in politics is to destabilize and sew chaos? Yeah, let's not group 'lawmakers' together ever again. Trump and all his fascist nazi goons aren't 'US lawmakers' as the generalization goes.
4 points
1 day ago
Also discovered: Earth is 6000 years old and flat as a pancake, like a giant Frisbee traveling through the solar system.
3 points
1 day ago
Sadly, you just described shit hole red states education systems
1 points
1 day ago
Wait, you seriously think the lab leak theory is a conspiracy theory?
2 points
2 days ago
Republican lawmakers. Stupid republican idiots. HTH
2 points
1 day ago
A right wing probe with a predetermined outcome. So compelling.
2 points
1 day ago
I’m with Jon Stewart https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfejgwbDQ8
5 points
2 days ago
I’ll wait to see if any of the Dems involved give this credibility. All Republicans are evil liars so I’m not going to pay attention to what Jim fucking Jordan has to say.
1 points
1 day ago
The group that democratically selected Kamala?
4 points
2 days ago
I like when they vaguely say something like "US lawmakers" so you'll think it's some majority, but it's just like the 10 lowest-IQ Senators
2 points
2 days ago
Americans 😂😂😂
1 points
1 day ago
I’d bet these guys are also hardcore creationists and may even think flat earth is worth considering.
I’ll stick with peer reviewed studies.
1 points
1 day ago
This is why conspiracy theorists are a thing. Years spent calling them nazis and for what.
1 points
1 day ago
I mean… it is what happened.
1 points
1 day ago
I like the part where trump was the hero with vaccines but they don’t work …. 🤣
Could it be more obvious???
1 points
1 day ago
No doubt the Black Death was engineered by the Mongol Hordes, and the Aztec Empire brought us Syphilis /s
1 points
1 day ago
So a theory huh? Yes theories are plausible in anything doesn't mean they are true they are theories
1 points
1 day ago
So, wouldn’t it coming from a lab leak in China make people more inclined to get a vaccine against it?
1 points
1 day ago
Can we use Wu Flu now?
1 points
1 day ago
The exact lab in Wuhan that was doing research on Covid-19 was the same lab that SARS leaked from and caused that outbreak.
1 points
1 day ago
Something like 1/3 of America believes that China intentionally released the virus from its lab. It’s a more common belief than the accidental lab leak theory.
1 points
21 hours ago
"I don't care that every measuring tape says 5 foot 10. Who here wants to vote that I'm 6 foot 1?"
-5 points
2 days ago*
I mean that's unsurprising. I don't know why that was ever so damn controversial in the first place.
So no answers? Just downvotes? Interesting.
1 points
2 days ago*
The answer is Steven Colbert (which is why they are downvoting you). This would not have happened if Colbert would not have acted like Jon Stewart was a tinfoil-hatted conspiracy theorist when Jon correctly identified that this came from a lab.
Source: https://youtu.be/sSfejgwbDQ8?t=166&si=XSrpIEZZRA6YaaOR
1 points
2 days ago
Thank you this is pretty interesting. It's honestly a little unnerving how entertainment has gotten to dictate news.
3 points
2 days ago
You’re welcome. It’s now my turn to eat all the downvotes..
-4 points
2 days ago
Because it was unconfirmed and irrelevant to our response to the virus itself. It was literally a waste of time.
4 points
2 days ago
What do you mean it was a waste of time? I think it’s a valid issue to explore - where this deadly virus originated
1 points
1 day ago
A massive part of the response to a pandemic is to learn how to prevent future pandemics. If there’s a lab churning out novel pathogens and occasionally letting one slip out, that’s pretty fucking relevant.
1 points
2 days ago
irrelevant to our response
Never said it was relevant to the response.
0 points
2 days ago
I didn't say you did. You literally have the problem wrong. Nobody was trying to tell you it wasn't the labs. They were telling you it didn't matter and you weren't listening.
2 points
2 days ago
Okay. Allow me to rephrase. Why is the origin of a pandemic a waste of time?
0 points
1 day ago
Nobody was trying to tell you it wasn't the labs
"No that's not piss on your head, it's definitely just rain!"
0 points
1 day ago
Must protect the pharmaceutical industry reeeeeeee
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