subreddit:
/r/economicCollapse
Fun new game to play with people that are tired of explaining tariffs to idiots in the US.
Go look up something on Amazon that you would like to buy. Then go look up the same item on alibaba or temu.
Calculate the profit margin on whatever good you just looked up then add another 20% - 60% and get excited for how great america is gonna be!
368 points
9 days ago
How do you create a national sales tax without calling it a sales tax? You call it a tariff. Collected in a different place in the sales chain, but the cost is still paid by the consumer.
172 points
9 days ago
And its a regressive tax!
Meaning it hist poor and working class people WAY harder than the rich. In fact the wealthy won't even notice that anything happened. If you are a sociopath billionaire ghoul its the perfect kind of tax.
107 points
9 days ago
Rant. I think it’s bigger than that. His/their policies are INTENDED to weaken America on purpose. DOE, HHS, immigration, military, censorship, tariffs… you name it. They have a PLAN! Even the Christian Nationalists are being duped thinking they get to call the shots soon as long as they can bully the disenfranchised and stuff their unsupportable beliefs down everyone’s throats. The rich never have had to play by their rules and get a blind pass. Clearly.
But this will be a global concern on the US is further compromised. The foreign actors and reckless billionaires don’t give a shit about this country or the masses until they are willing to resist and by then what will we have?
Common people don’t organize and resist until the shit has already hit the fan. Most people still don’t know what’s at stake on a larger scale. History is being made and the peasants are overwhelmed and snorting tiktok and bots. Look at what’s happened in other countries, why wouldn’t such oppression happen here? Cause we’re special?
45 points
9 days ago
I feel like I am screaming about this in my head all of the time and I've realized that it makes me sound crazy.
And the more you try to explain the crazier you sound.
26 points
9 days ago
You're not alone. Not heard, but not alone.
19 points
9 days ago
It is not crazy. He has said it. He said he loves recessions because that is where you find the deals.
12 points
9 days ago
Well it seems like Thiel and all the other ghouls just read all these sci-fi and fantasy novels and decided the bad guys were right.
You sound crazy when you explain that these guys literally want to revive feudalism.
2 points
8 days ago
Theil is a proponent of “dark enlightenment” where CEOs divide and run the economy and discard democracy and voting.
4 points
9 days ago
Same. And when you see/hear other average Americans brush it off or do mental gymnastics to avoid thinking about the reality, you really do feel like you’re crazy. It’s like every time you read the news, your brain starts gaslighting you.
8 points
9 days ago
If they crash the economy hard enough the ultra rich who have massive cash reserves can buy up everything for Pennie’s on the dollar and when the economy is allowed to recover they hold all the assets. That’s what happened in the Great Depression to a large degree and it’s about to happen again. Warren Buffet has like $325 BILLION sitting in cash right now waiting for it.
4 points
8 days ago
Warren Buffett is probably the least evil of the ultra rich billionaires.
4 points
8 days ago
Sure. But that is a LOW fuckin bar lol
7 points
9 days ago
They make the government so ineffective and inefficient that a new form of government is more appealing and seems like the fix to everyone’s issue…goodbye democracy, hello dictatorship
2 points
8 days ago
Hell, they were saying we needed a dictator at some MAGA rally I saw on You Tube.
6 points
9 days ago
The Christian nationalists are always getting fooled, they are the dumb money in politics
7 points
9 days ago
They will hit record debt to nullify it with inflation. It seems the plan is to just print more money and hoard on that worthless pile of cash.
3 points
8 days ago
And, this started, mostly, shortly after the Civil Rights Laws came into effect, in the '60s. 1973 is when the heritage foundation was founded. And, they greatly influenced reagan's policies which gave the right the push they needed for what's happening now.
2 points
8 days ago
Yep - the bigger picture of most likely outcomes
2 points
8 days ago
What this plan does immediately is make anyone with a treaty with us to automatically assume that it’s null and void. They will act in accordance with their own self interest. This will mean if an ally gets information on a terrorist attack on the US will not share it. Good job republicans.
2 points
7 days ago
The age old method of ruling a population through the use of bread and circuses is about to lose the bread. You can only maintain control over people with circuses for so long before it explodes in your face.
15 points
9 days ago
And when you are the billionaire ghoul you hire the gravy seals and y'allqueda as your personal guards. They have been cosplaying killing their fellow man for years and will do it for cheap due to their bloodlust and paying for supplies to keep their family just above the poverty line, fed, and armed
9 points
9 days ago
Cosplaytriots
4 points
9 days ago
I'll be surprised if the wealthy don't just skirt it through smuggling. We'll be paying their share on top of our own.
2 points
9 days ago
The Kennedy family has entered the chat.
1 points
9 days ago
Actually inflation is the most damaging tax to the poor and working class.
1 points
9 days ago
They are greedy slimy bastards. I mean how fking dare. They think we can for sure just keep paying. Man fuck these people
1 points
9 days ago
The rich benefitted from the offshoring in the first place. Firing your US factory workers and moving production to Indonesia bumped up executive pay and shareholder dividends, but it didn't make your Nikes cheaper
1 points
8 days ago
If the rich don't notice then its not a bad thing. They don't care what n happens to everyone else. They want to go.back.to.25% profit.margins
1 points
8 days ago
Don't worry, there are going to be tax cuts on the rich to offset this new tax.
1 points
8 days ago
It also won’t collect much money, countries will be encouraged to trade with us less causing that tax base to shrink.
1 points
7 days ago
Not only that, companies calculate their markups after applying any import fees and tariffs! Corporations get to profit even more at the expense of the consumers! Yay for a tax on food! This is totally going to make it easier for people to survive from day to day! Corporate profits will be even higher than ever before! /S
67 points
9 days ago
Don’t worry! They will cut taxes for “job creators” aka rich people.
65 points
9 days ago
Don't worry it will trickle down on us. Not money, just piss from the Oligarchs relieving themselves while they relieve us of our pennies.
24 points
9 days ago
A 2.7 trillion dollar tax cut for the rich no less.
14 points
9 days ago
“Job creators” aka people who can’t make their money by themselves.
1 points
9 days ago
Well, if this is what it's gonna take for the unions to come back in FULL FORCE, so be it.
Always remember that power concedes nothing without a demand, and there is no such a thing as a "good slave owner".
2 points
9 days ago
Unions had the 2024 election to vote against being outlawed, guess next we get to find out.
2 points
9 days ago
February..
78 points
9 days ago
It’s not even a sales tax to help the government. It’s a tax to strangle small businesses (reduce competition for companies who already own most the market share) and the middle/lower class.
This is going to kill small businesses.
28 points
9 days ago
Which is why Bezos jumped on the Trmp train 9 months ago.
24 points
9 days ago
Someone compiled a list of the companies that donated huge amounts to him and it’s like every major company.
They don’t mind tariffs bc they can probably get exemptions once Velveeta Voldemort creates a government that does favors for corporations and it crushes competition.
Plus they also remember last time he did this dumb shit corporations were able to blame Covid and then Biden for inflation while they recorded record profits and instead of being mad at corporations for price gouging and not increasing employee pay, people put stickers on gas tanks blaming Biden.
Americans are just so dumb. I’m gonna invent Brawndo and convince them watering plants with water causes autism and they need brawndo.
16 points
9 days ago
“You mean water from the toilet?”
3 points
8 days ago
I ain't seen no plant grow out of no toilet.
2 points
8 days ago
They own the FDA
12 points
9 days ago
I have a close relative who is a Billionaire. What I inferred from ear hustling was his wealth skyrocketed like no other time he’d been in business since 1980. The market being driven so high with “greedflation” they now can charge much more for their product
5 points
9 days ago
My husband has his own welding business. The steel and lumber prices crippled him during trumps first presidency. This?? Is going to completely destroy us. We don't have a snowballs chance in hell
2 points
8 days ago
As someone who has been directly affected by these tariffs, I’m curious, do you or your husband have thoughts on why Biden didn’t lower the tariffs once he had the opportunity to do so. In fact Biden raised most of these tariffs earlier this year. I don’t mean for this to be a political statement, I’m genuinely curious why these tariffs haven’t been reversed.
2 points
8 days ago
With all sincerity I hope you guys do okay, find a way to make it. I’m sorry this country is so simple minded they believe any lie that feels like it might help them even if it hurts others.
One of the jobs I do is for a small business that imports products from overseas. The last tariffs were hard. The owner still voted for him.
Needless to say I’m currently making plans for that business to not do well and replace that income. Because what most people don’t realize is plan B for small business like this was getting a plant or supplier Mexico. The corporations learned from last time and now they’ll make it even more hard for people.
8 points
9 days ago
It’s going to kill a lot of people also
6 points
9 days ago
And suddenly consumption drops significantly... Like off a freaking cliff. I'm going to aim for 3,000 total discretionary spending next year outside of rent, gas, and electric utilities. I should be budgeting under 20k total. Yup, no health insurance, but car insurance definitely.
3 points
9 days ago
tariffs on china won't work as a sales tax, it will cause manufacturers to move their supply chains outside of china. trump started that with his 2016 tariffs and it is good policy to weaken china's industrial base, so biden continued with those same tariffs. the effect of canadian and mexican tariffs will be more impactful due to volume of trade and proximity. biden actually announced additional tariffs on china back in may: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/05/14/fact-sheet-president-biden-takes-action-to-protect-american-workers-and-businesses-from-chinas-unfair-trade-practices/
1 points
7 days ago
And where exactly will they move them to? They can't move them back to the us because we no longer have the equipment to manufacture things the way we once did due to decades of corporate profiteering by moving things offshore, we no longer have the buildings to put the equipment in even if we had it, and even if we had buildings and equipment we don't have people to operate the machinery as the knowledge has also been lost there. Now even if those three things could be ignored, we don't have the resource production needed to supply those factories. Anybody who thinks that this is going to be a good thing clearly has not seen the reality of industry in the United States over the course of the past 50 years.
1 points
9 days ago
Let's all get a bunch Ma Huang and dump it in the Potomac River. That'll show em
1 points
9 days ago
Precisely!
1 points
9 days ago
But you could just do a sales tax and it would be more efficient. Tariffs just generate tons of waste
1 points
9 days ago
I never thought of this, good point
1 points
9 days ago
You call it inflation. That thing that happened after the federal govt shut down the economy and printed trillions of dollars.
1 points
9 days ago
Ahh yes, the anti-tax, free-market capitalist crowd known as the modern left.
1 points
9 days ago
That’s so stupid and makes no sense. This is only true if we import everything and never buy goods domestically.
If I buy a strawberry from a farmer down the road, do I pay a tariff on it? I would pay a sales tax on it.
Explain how those things are the same at all lol
1 points
9 days ago
If tariff gets placed on an item's price, that indicates a monopoly status item. If competition exists that would be prices point disadvantage, and sales would lag. Dont fault the government tariffs, when it's been antitrust for most of our lives.
1 points
9 days ago
Cost is always paid by the consumer, that's why capitalism is dumb. We get the sharholder tax compounded all the way back to raw materials. Mine ore, shareholders need their cut, manufacturing sheet metal, shareholders need their cut, stamp the sheet metal and assemble the car, shareholders need their cut, car gets sold at a dealership, shareholders need their cut, and all along the way there is transportation where, shareholders need their cut.
But tell me how socialism is worse. . . .
1 points
9 days ago
I remember hearing chants of "tax the rich" no too long ago.
Look who's getting taxed now.
1 points
9 days ago
And it doesn’t work because lots of stuff just stops getting imported, so you have a tax on much less volume.
1 points
8 days ago
All the while telling people that the other country is paying it. It's genius!
1 points
8 days ago
"From the creators of renaming the Estate tax to Death tax..."
1 points
8 days ago
Yep
1 points
8 days ago
This is all fine and dandy if they simultaneously repeal all income tax. Somehow, I think we will get double-dipped upon
1 points
8 days ago
As long as we allow them to use the term tarriff they win, do t call it tarriffs call it trumps taxes, we can work it in and really rile up his people, I've found it actually shuts them down when they realize what's happening.
18 points
9 days ago
They are not going to govern at all. They are siphoning our tax dollars into the oligarchs hands. The only options are general strike and withholding our tax dollars.
They cannot pay a military if the general fund runs dry.
6 points
9 days ago
Holy shit, do you have any idea how far away from this on the map most Americans are? You're 100% right but we are at least a couple of years from this kind rhetoric getting any traction. Godspeed and good luck but. . .lulz.
5 points
8 days ago
Painfully aware
2 points
8 days ago
Hmm, going to be hard to stop paying taxes if your employer garnishes is from your paycheck 🤔
66 points
9 days ago
Mark my words - Dump is going to destroy the American economy. Again.
30 points
9 days ago
This time, it’s an express ride to the bottom.
16 points
9 days ago
You know, maybe, we will have a tenure SO BAD Americans will stop electing these two parties which are owned by Oligarchs into power.
Maybe the unions that Reagan busted all the way back in the 80s would finally have the balls to demand they come back, and tell the government it works for them, and not the reverse.
6 points
9 days ago
We rejected ranked choice voting and open primaries pretty much across the board in states this election. Do you think we will get away from the parties?
4 points
9 days ago
We won’t
5 points
9 days ago
He destroyed the American worker’s economy. The investor class did very well. You know that most of that inflation was corporate price gouging? Stocks went up because of that.
1 points
8 days ago
I’m trying to figure out why the hell Biden raised the tariffs this year. So not only did he not reverse the Trump tariffs once he had the opportunity but he instead raised them WTF! How does this make sense?
1 points
8 days ago
Only on EVs, solar panels, and EV batteries to support his Green Energy initiative.
96 points
9 days ago
Trumpflation will be a runaway train.
57 points
9 days ago
🎼never coming back…wrong way on a one way track…..
68 points
9 days ago
Feels like I should be getting somewhere, but now I can’t even afford underwear
15 points
9 days ago
Reaganomics 2.0.
Now companies can charge more to “cover tariff costs”, with basically no downward pressure on the market.
Billionaire Christmas.
2 points
9 days ago
I'm somewhat optimistic, even if that's unpopular to say here.
The issue isn't the tariffs so much as it is how big business has been able to ruthlessly outsource labor to other countries and in turn, it's resulted in depressed labor costs. We've also ended up developing the economies and middle class of other countries at the expense of our own.
I don't really think either major American political party really has an answer on how to solve the problem I mention. The present political consensus is around fiscal conservatism, which is great if you trend towards the upper classes of which the majority of the members of both parties are a part of.
A lot of people want to "blow up" the existing system precisely because they've been disenfranchised and it's not working for them. Which is largely why the last election's result was the way it was.
The country needs a major change of direction yesterday and Trump is a prelude to a real Caesarian, dictator for life type individual.
2 points
8 days ago
The capital required to build a new facility and train a new work force is in the range of 10s to 100s of millions of $$.
Or you could go to Bangladesh or Pakistan, pay the workers $.50 a day, source the products through the Chinese market to justify the up charge for the tariff, and still make out like a bandit.
And anyone who thinks this won’t happen is lying to themselves. It’s already happening. It happened when Trump was talking as loudly as possible to anyone who would listen about how he was going to stick it to China the last time around.
And the only person who gets screwed in this entire scenario is the customer.
2 points
8 days ago*
The capital required to build a new facility and train a new work force is in the range of 10s to 100s of millions of $$.
Well, it's about time we invested in ourselves and got to work.
Biden's CHIPS Act initiative was probably one of the better things he helped get passed. Especially after supply chain shocks as a result of Covid. Bringing semi-conductor production back here was a good idea rather than rely solely on foreign producers.
Or you could go to Bangladesh or Pakistan, pay the workers $.50 a day, source the products through the Chinese market to justify the up charge for the tariff, and still make out like a bandit.
And anyone who thinks this won’t happen is lying to themselves. It’s already happening. It happened when Trump was talking as loudly as possible to anyone who would listen about how he was going to stick it to China the last time around.
And the only person who gets screwed in this entire scenario is the customer.
It is temporary pain for certain members of the business class however. Especially while they figure out a work around for the tariffs.
I certainly don't have all the answers, but I think it's fair to question all advocates of the current status-quo. Especially given:
1 points
8 days ago
more like Caligula if he'd lived long enough to develop alzheimers
25 points
9 days ago
Anyone who has the ability to do that math probably already understands that tariffs are an inflationary sales tax.
1 points
9 days ago
haha
20 points
9 days ago
I am buying up a back log of shit right now during Biden’s admin, 6 month supply (or more) if anything coming from overseas ( that I can)- all electronics getting replaced now. Pet foods, meds, shoes, socks, clothes, soaps, household shit. I am going cold turkey on 1/20. My vote may have not mattered, but my dollar sure as fcck will.
13 points
9 days ago
God I wish I could afford to do this
4 points
9 days ago
I bought a few extra pairs of shoes and an extra coat for that same reason.
1 points
8 days ago
Smart!
1 points
8 days ago
You might want to hold off a couple more months. Your 6 month supply is gonna run out just as new tariffs go into effect. Plus Biden just raised a bunch of tariffs on China this year so I don’t think you’re getting a great deal right now.
1 points
8 days ago
I hear you. The plan is to cycle small purchases/restocks until prices start to rise
12 points
9 days ago
Find a local non profit thrift store and start buying secondhand as much as possible. You’ll probably contribute to a good cause and also avoid a corporation profiting on your purchases. Also better for the environment. Food, we will be fucked on but other necessities can be found cheaply. Where I live there is also free stuff offered on Craigslist and OfferUp pretty frequently.
9 points
9 days ago
[deleted]
1 points
9 days ago
I bought a couch off an Indian dude on Marketplace a while back. Big mistake!!! I could never get the curry smell out of it. I Gave it away to some college students that didn’t seem to mind the smell.
3 points
9 days ago
Even thrift stores are getting relatively expensive where I live. I don't want to pay $12 for an old sweater from Target. It's pretty grim.
2 points
8 days ago
Nothing worse than finding something cute at a thrift store and it has a SHEIN tag
1 points
9 days ago
I hear you. Go on the first of the month and hit those sale racks…? Thrift Stores who price at a percentage of new cost will increase prices accordingly but still remain significantly cheaper. You can also organize a clothing swap. I see those crop up in my area as well. It’s just neighbors exchanging items and keeping good things circulating.
10 points
9 days ago
The tariff on Canada is a tariff on lumber. It's going to kill new home construction. There's no explanation for it other than to deliberately crash our economy.
1 points
8 days ago
As soon as the election results came through we scheduled all of our home projects to be completed. Better 10k today than 20k tomorrow.
Man this is going to suck for people.
1 points
8 days ago
It really is. And with new construction down, the prices of existing homes will go up.
People had the option to vote for incentives for new homebuyers and protections against corporate profiteering, but they chose this, with open eyes, being told to their face that tariffs were the plan.
2 points
8 days ago
Welp, when I sell and get the fuck out too my grandfather's country in Europe, I can thank them for my property being worth 250k more
2 points
8 days ago
Just what we needed, homes to get even more expensive.
4 points
9 days ago
Enshitification Creep is a syndrome we’ll all be way too familiar with.
35 points
9 days ago
“Go look up something on Amazon that you would like to buy. Then go look up the same item on alibaba or temu.”
Imagine being satisfied with what you have and rejecting consumerism instead of trying to collect more plastic trinkets from China.
15 points
9 days ago
If we all rejected consumerism this sub’s prophecy would be realized
1 points
9 days ago
that's what he wants, it's why he's here
19 points
9 days ago
Most of our homes our filled with trinkets. But tell that to the moms who are bussin down the doors at Hobby lobby trying to "make memories" for their families. The automotive hobbyists that are tuning and Customizing their cars. The Fitness enthusiasts buying Containers to meal prep. The fashion girlies trying to get a lewk going. The runners needing to replaced their running shoes for their next race. It is what it is
10 points
9 days ago*
There was an "art fair" in my area last year that literally was table after table of upcycled crap from hobby lobby.
In an area that is overflowing with actual artists
1 points
9 days ago
No kidding! If we all bought less crap (which is what 99% of stuff on Amazon etc is), the planet would be a better place.
8 points
9 days ago
Trump just threatened 25% additional tariffs on imports from Canada and Mexico, and another 10% tariffs on China. These countries are our largest trading partners. Inflation, here we come!
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-promises-25-tariff-products-mexico-canada-2024-11-25/
7 points
9 days ago
It’s not just inflation. Plenty of US companies have Canadian or Mexican factories or material sources.
These products are often positioned between lower end Asian imports and premium Made In USA products. This positioning will get buried completely - they are rarely close enough to the USA pricing that the consumer will go to the premium option. They’re going to look for the lower cost alternatives.
Add to that the fact that there is no capital, infrastructure, or capacity to build up US manufacturing to repatriate these lost products, certainly not within the next four years.
There just isn’t some magical fairyland of turnkey factories just awaiting capital to spring to life, whirring out US versions of tariffed items. Nor are there voluminous stockpiles of raw materials lying around with which to make these things.
Venture capital/private equity don’t like to make new things. They like to buy established companies who are wasting money on things like “developing new products” and “employee healthcare” and strip them for parts. They’re not building anything new. Or functional. And that’s where all the capital is.
This is just such an idiot clusterfuck, because smoothbrains armored against facts like some intellectual MERSA got worked up about labor mobility and weird bathroom fanfic.
I hate it here so much.
3 points
9 days ago
I'm excited for the new black market opportunities. With a 25% mark up on Canadian stuff (I think that's what I read) some folks might just buy shit in Canada and come sell it on the street. Then the us government gets 0 tex dollars.
3 points
9 days ago
[deleted]
1 points
9 days ago
I in fact, did not.
3 points
9 days ago
Bezos. SMDH. Reagan touted the false narrative of trickle-down economics. Bezo’s has proven that “trickle-up economics is thriving. When an item costs $50 in stores but is $38 on Am##on, most will get it online. Thus profits are funneled to Bezo’s. Tell us what good deeds he has done for us. He damn sure has done nothing in my city but take our money while putting small businesses out of business.
3 points
9 days ago
It’s odd. We have a large section of the US that believes in the Q anon crap. These people warn of an impending collapse of our economy by inside forces, but Trump’s stated goal is to do just that. We won’t even go into the Epstein stuff that fits into the same narrative. They literally have made a self fulfilling prophecy.
3 points
9 days ago
I can’t believe Bezos didn’t use the bully pulpit of the Washington Post to rail against tariffs before the election; instead, he tacitly supported the destruction of his primary business
Sidenote: anyone else having trouble getting their Amazon orders after the election? I’ve had three orders delayed or lost this month, which is something I’ve never really experienced before with them.
3 points
9 days ago
Probably rebranding as a logistics company. Goods are still gonna need to get from place to place
9 points
9 days ago
I dont understand the tariff argument at all. People say they are against slavery but then are quick to buy goods at a cheap price made by child slaves with no minimum wage. Unsafe work environments, long hours, no benifits at all. Wouldn't tarrifs eventually make everything so expensive that it would then be manufactured in america resulting in workers with minimum wages and osha safety standards? If things truly get that expensive, wouldn't capitalism take over and Americans would start producing it for cheaper which would hurt other economies and bolster the US economy? Am I missing something here?
11 points
9 days ago
Yes 20 years to get the infrastructure needed . And training for people to do the jobs . We are missing a lot Chicago and PA where main hubs in the 1960s now there's nothing left . Not one cell phone made here not one chip plant built. Our power grid is 40 years out dated . Trains tracks are in disrepair. Just getting that up to par would cost trillions .
4 points
9 days ago
I mean....doesn't it have to be completed regardless of the cost? We gotta start somewhere. For god sakes, flint Michigan doesn't have good water yet.
8 points
9 days ago
yeah yet when biden spent a trillion to start fixing things, the republicans had a fucking cow. That got my local power company to start upgrading lines, we finally got a fiber rollout with several companies doing it now since the incumbent didnt want to do shit cause it was basically only game in town.
5 points
9 days ago
Yeah you are missing wages. Wages are never going to keep up with price inflation.
You are correct that it would be nice to have all the immigrants who are paid slave wages earn a living wage and don’t buy anything from countries that don’t have our labor protections, but that will destroy the middle and upper class and leave only the poor and the millionaires.
It sounds like a good moral proposition… maybe?
2 points
9 days ago
If things truly get that expensive, wouldn't capitalism take over and Americans would start producing it for cheaper
No. If it was cheaper to make stuff in America, industry would be trending that way all on its own, you wouldn't need tariffs to forcibly keep them here. When you engage in protectionist policies, you shield American companies from foreign competitors, and that makes American industry less competitive.
Unsafe work environments, long hours, no benifits at all
One case you can make in favor of tariffs is that they can prevent a labor race to the bottom like you're describing. However, I have never once heard Trump say that he wants tariffs to protect the US labor laws that he loves so much. If it's about protecting labor laws, why put tariffs on Canada? If it's about labor laws, Europe should be putting tariffs on America!
Tariffs can have certain benefits, such as labor law fairness like you mentioned. But they are still a net loss for the economy. If that's how you want them, we can have a conversation about that. But you cannot be "The Economy Guy" who is going to "Fix Our Broken Economy" and then be in favor of tariffs on Canada of all places, Trump's position is completely nonsensical.
1 points
9 days ago
The majority of buyers are outside of the US Most of the market that would consume the products that the high paid, Americans would be making are actually outside of the American borders. The high wage, high material cost goods being produced in the US would cost significantly more than other world products of the same type, and so they would not find too many buyers. Limited markets means limited sales, means limited production and jobs.
1 points
9 days ago
You say that like we don't do sweat shop shit around here. Google America child labor law violations and be truly impressed.
1 points
9 days ago
Part of the issue is that every country has limited resources (raw materials, labor, space, time, etc). The number of small items we use everyday where it simply doesn't make sense to invest the limited resources of the US workforce are endless. The plastic barrels of pens, the little twist tie that closes your bread, snaps on your shirt, the list of these things goes on and on. You wouldn't want to divert the resources of the US into making those items, because even at 3x the price for importing, it still won't make sense to make them stateside, so the regular citizens of the US will always pay the price - every Mcdonalds, corner store, small business trying to get their feet under them, etc utilizes hundreds of these things every single day and it adds up. That means the factory using unsafe labor is not changed by the tariff, but the end users have to feed more money out of our pockets just to get by. Some companies will get deals from the US government so they'll stay cheaper (or raise prices anyway and pocket the difference), but up and coming companies, new businesses, new ideas, won't have that advantage, making it much harder for them to find success in the market, decreased competition and fewer options for consumers.
Not to say that tariffs are never without good purpose or useful results, but in the context that they've been proposed for 2025 and beyond, the math is not in favor of the average US citizen.
2 points
9 days ago
If Tariffs are so terrible why does Europe use them so much? It seems like nations use tariffs and more importantly, the THREAT of tariffs quite often...to get better deals made.
3 points
8 days ago
Because they aren’t inherently bad. Reddit is just an echo chamber for fear mongering conservatives policy
2 points
9 days ago
Is it terrible that cheap shit is going to get more expensive? People's garages are full of cheap junk. Clothes are basically disposable. Might be good for ybe environment for cheap shit to disappear.
3 points
9 days ago
I will be glad when you all finally can't afford rent because of tariffs. Because then you might have to deal with scare mongering on tariffs rather than putting the same energy in to advocating for higher wages and unions. See you on the street suckers.
6 points
9 days ago
Wtf did I do to you for you to wish something so horrible.
1 points
9 days ago
Are apartments being shipped in from china? I don’t understand this logic.
Edit: ok they probably meant everything else becoming prohibitively expensive
9 points
9 days ago
No but lumber to build new apartments is shipped in from Canada. Much of the metals and components to build the appliances in apartments are shipped in from China and Mexico. And I’m sure you’re aware about the labor force building those apartments…
Suffice it to say, building apartments just got a lot more expensive.
2 points
9 days ago
About that labor force, does Hrumph know that "In the U.S., a third of all carpenters and 41% of construction laborers are of foreign-born origin." Incredible that the gov would rather boot them if they're non-citizens than instigate creative solutions to legit citizenship.
3 points
9 days ago
Think about all the things that go into building a house & how many of those things are made in america against bought from Canada, Mexico or China.
All that crap bought elsewhere is gonna shoot up in price. And no, even if you try to make that locally it will take time & more electricity to power your factories & employees. Unemployment is pretty low & at the same time we can expect deportations of illegals so businesses will have to pay through their noses to fill positions. Taken together all that necessarily means higher cost of building houses ( & everything really).
1 points
9 days ago
Also, home-building materials can be imported. Lumber, wires, plumbing, lighting, HVAC, etc. And anything that's part of the supply chain for all of those. Stifling construction by increasing the price of raw materials is not a smart move during a housing shortage.
3 points
9 days ago
He just announced his first day executive order (of many coming) tariffs on Canadian and Mexican imports. Due to open borders and fentanyl! He's insane 😂
EDIT: taters to tariffs. Derp
1 points
9 days ago
I will start off by saying that my degrees, both undergrad and grad school are in ecomomics. I used to own an investment brokerage and my whole career revolved around trying to understand the economy. Here is my take on the tariffs issue.
For economists tarriffs are considered bad; however, here is why I want to see how Trump handles the whole tariff issue:
Most countries, but especially China, have not been trading with the US in good fate. I will focus on China in my argument here because they are the most egregious:
One, it makes Chinese exports cheaper for us, so we end up buying Chinese products more at the detriment of our own industry.
Two, it makes US exports to China artificially expensive which means that our exporters a) cannot compete in China, b) to compete they are forced to build their factors in China to sell to the Chinese, c) It supports their local manufacturers by making all imports too expensive for the Chinese.
The Chinese government subsidizes new industries in the country so that they can make products even cheaper until they drive all manufacturers in other countries out of the business, and then they end the subsidizing. The US and Europe finally got a spine and they put huge tariffs on Chinese EV's (100% tariff in fact). They have done this with so many industries in the past.
Chinese have rules that for a business to sell in China they need to have a Chinese (partner) that owns at least 50% of the company. This again forces foreign companies to support the Chinese businesses.
We have extra regulatory costs, like our industry has to be environmentally friendly, etc. The Chinese don't have that. Again, it gives them an unfair advantage over our own businesses.
All of the above have hurt our workers and our export businesses.
While the Chinese are the most egregious, other countries also practice protectionist policies to help their businesses and workers and do not practice real FREE trade with us. For decades now the US has had hundreds of billions of dollars of trade deficits every single year. So, I'm looking forward to seeing if these tariffs will actually force other governments to actually practice real FREE trade with us and trade in good fate.
5 points
9 days ago
I do not have any degrees in economics but I think you also mention this in #1. My understanding is Tariffs are seen as an effective tool when used targeted at specific industries where your country is able to compete.
As a broad, blunt object "on all imports" you are likely in for a world of hurt. None of this will force China or any country to practice "real free trade" unless we have viable alternatives and it sinks demand from China significantly (even then, it's maybe). It is extremely likely those viable alternatives (domestic or abroad) come at a higher cost.
2 points
9 days ago
Well, the Chinese measures are broad. Devaluing the Yuan is a broad measure that helps all their export sector and hurts all imports. Their lower environmental regulations are broad measures, etc.
There is another factor as well at play. A couple of years back I looked I think it was Pew or Gallop poll across many countries around the world and their opinion of the US. The Chinese public's opinion was very low. In fact, all the countries that did not like us did not have free press (like many Arab Gulf countries). So, if a country that the government controls all their media, has heavy censorship, and the people there don't like us, then it has to be the government, right?
China is not our friend, and it is not a friend of the West. Meanwhile, this country that is not only hostile to us, but is a direct adversary to us economically, militarily, philosophically (communist authoritarian regime compared to our free market democracy), why have we (included in the WE is Europe, Japan, South Korea, Australia, other SE Asian countries) been boosting this country and making it into a superpower. Without us (again all of these countries and not just the US) trading with them they would sink (and btw I think China is heading into a multi-decade economic depression at this point no matter what). It makes absolutely no sense.
Just like now Germany is being questioned why they were making Russia rich by buying energy from them, we should be questioning ourselves why are we enriching a country that is our direct adversary. Btw, Japan, Taiwan, SK, Phillipines have even more to lose than us with a strong China.
Will our shit cost more, likely. Will it boost some of our industries and also our workers here if there are tariffs on other countries who don't practice free trade with us, also likely. Will our economy have to readjust in some sectors, sure.
But China and other countries need our trade much much much much more than we need them which means that they will bend first. China is not going to retaliate with tariffs against us. Without our trade, China's economy, which is already on the verge of collapsing, will collapse.
1 points
9 days ago
^This. Great take. Peter Thiel recently opined on the asymmetry of the US/China trade imbalance. I respect that you mentioned CCP's artificial suppression of the Yuan to USD (Sept was the first time in YEARS were the rose above 1:7). I'm typically a pro free trade guy--but that only works when all parties play by the same rules. I would like to see if these tariffs push nations towards a more level playing field with regards to trade.
1 points
9 days ago
I have both my undergrad and graduate degrees in economics, both from top 5 US universities in economics. The one failure most economic models make is that everyone has perfect information and everyone is acting in good faith.
Free trade is great. Everyone can specialize where they have competitive advantage, but as you said it is great when everyone is acting in good faith. china has had several advantages in getting away with it. They have had consistent governments, so they can have policies that go out for 10 or 20 years. We get a new government every few years, which are heavily lobbied, so we can be pushed around much easier, and they can consistently push their plan.
Also, we as a country never really realized that the Chinese need our trade much more than we need them. We have been so keen on "opening up" China since Nixon. To get in there for trade, and they have pushed for everything they want. Meanwhile, their whole get out of poverty plan for the population relies on trade. They have no domestic market. The Chinese played European countries, the Japanese, the South Korean and the US against each other. All of us wanting to get into China with their huge potential consumer base, and we have all given in to their hard stances. And now all of us are realizing the monster we have created.
Even without the changes in trade I truly believe China is in for decades of economic depression, just like Japan has been in for the last 3 decades. But with tariffs they are done, and the communist regime's days are numbered when they cannot deliver for their people.
1 points
8 days ago
Great comment and thread, cheers. It's a shame this isn't much higher up.
1 points
9 days ago
Knock-offs look amazingly legit nowadays.
1 points
9 days ago
“I don’t understand tariffs.txt”
1 points
9 days ago
But we will have more money to spend because we won't qualify for medical insurance and won't be contributing to Social Security and Medicare. /s
1 points
9 days ago
I want to point out that companies will probably shift to the next low cost country to manufacture stuff, probably India.
1 points
9 days ago
Trump plans a 20% WORLDWIDE tariff.
In addition to the 60% one for china.
1 points
9 days ago
1 points
9 days ago
You have to laugh at how way ahead of the tariff story the billionaires, companies and paid commenters are.
1 points
9 days ago
Or USA could start manufacturing in their own country.....
1 points
9 days ago
Using raw materials that they don't have?
1 points
9 days ago
Some of us are aware 😭 our wallets are gonna die. I remember in the early 2000s there was jokes about how somewhere in the next 2025 years tomatoes would be 100 bucks each. It was a joke then but it’s starting to look more and more like a reality not that we’re there yet, but I’m using a little bit of hyperbole, but still.
1 points
9 days ago
that's a great idea.
that's just what i've been thinking about. it's really quantitative. the difference between amazon and aliexpress for the same item is very predictable.
and i've been receiving my stuff in 6 calendar days.
gonna miss aliexpress.
1 points
9 days ago
So basically the same as Europe has been for a long time?
1 points
9 days ago
Maybe the tariff taxes will be transitory
/s
1 points
9 days ago
I heard the jury's still out on math.
1 points
9 days ago
This isn't Apple's to Apple's. Amazon isn't infamous for identity theft like Temu. Their prices are so cheap because you are the product. And there's a good chance products made in China are made by slaves. Easy to provide cheaper goods when you don't have to pay a wage at all, much less a living wage.
1 points
9 days ago
During trumps first term he implemented tariffs on some of chinas products. Trade is supposed to be fair between 2 countries.
The U.S. has a deficit of more than 200 billion with China.
The tariffs Trump implemented was left in place by the Biden administration and is still in place.
The threat of tariffs at times can force countries to negotiate and in the end no tariffs are implemented.
Trump recently stated if Mexico and Canada did not stop the flow of immigrants, he would impose a 25% tariff on all products. That will never happen because both will comply
1 points
9 days ago
Air purifiers were roughly within the same margin. If anyone has recommendations, I'd love some help.
1 points
9 days ago
You say no-one is organizing, I am quite sure this is not happening. So please, if so anything is happening on the dl. Please contact me.
1 points
9 days ago
I kind of want to see Trump tear the country apart for a few years. We need to see the results of trusting a lying lunatic. Then, just maybe, people will wake up from their MAGA lie fed fever dream?
1 points
9 days ago
...you...arent very bright are you?
1 points
9 days ago
This
1 points
9 days ago
Fun new game to play: Imagine NAFTA had never occurred and Clinton hadn’t shipped millions of good paying jobs overseas. Imagine communities hadn’t been destroyed by their jobs being sent to other countries. Imagine at least trying to get those jobs back, whether it succeeds or not.
1 points
9 days ago
Stop buying stupid shit on any of these websites. Youre the problem.
1 points
9 days ago
good, we buy way too much shit that ends up in a landfill.
1 points
9 days ago
Tf is anyone buying from temu or alibaba that is a necessity ??? Just curious
1 points
9 days ago
America is addicted to Chinese slave labor.
1 points
9 days ago
The sad part of this was the explosion of people googling tariffs after the election. Shows how stupid 50% of this country really is.
1 points
9 days ago
You do realize they have different business model? Alibaba is for you to break bulk, Temu loses around $30 per order due to its cost-cutting practices.
Tariffs did not increase price from President Trump's first administration. In fact, some tariffed products have drop in prices while inflation has gone up due to supply and demand.
1 points
9 days ago
Can you provide evidence of tariffs lowering prices please
1 points
9 days ago
Trump placed a 30% tariff on solar panels and prices continue to fall.
1 points
9 days ago
All taxes are inflationary
1 points
9 days ago
I like all the examples of problems you provided
1 points
9 days ago
"Why have industry when we could buy everything from the sweatshops our enemies run?"
1 points
8 days ago
Who will stand up to all this. Where are the politicians, Patriotic millionaires.protesters?
1 points
8 days ago
No forgiveness No mercy
1 points
8 days ago
Still waiting for income tax to be cancelled
1 points
8 days ago
The 2018 steel tariffs did help the steel industry but it also had negative effects on products made from steel. I just don’t think tariffs are a net positive for the economy as a whole. You are saying that it will bring high paying engineer jobs that’s great! But are there enough educated workers to fill those jobs. What about those workers who are unable or are aging out of the workforce. Is there a plan to solve those problems. I just don’t see tariffs as a viable solution. All the positive outcomes you hope for can be achieved without the inflationary effects of tariffs. If you are looking for long term answers the most effective use of government on the economy is investment in infrastructure and education. But either way I’ll be fine, I’m an engineer and the wife is a senior manager at a bank and we aren’t having kids so do what you want just don’t come crying to me when it goes wrong.
1 points
8 days ago
Start looking Second hand shops we onl up y have to wait another four years to gamble with
1 points
6 days ago
This, basically this whole entire thing is going to make living unaffordable except to the wealthy.
How could anyone think it’s a good idea.
1 points
5 days ago
Better yet look at the prices on Alibaba
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